Talk:Shroud of Turin

The face of Jesus is European

so now that the face of Jesus is reconstructed as European, Greek Like, what will pseudo scientists say about him being middle eastern 2600:1004:B0A7:A529:0:27:7522:E201 (talk) 22:47, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

That he was middle-eastern. By definition. Also, not the first flying clue what you are on about regarding a "reconstruction." Did they find remains and I missed it? Dumuzid (talk) 23:08, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

No, it would be unexpected if remains were found, per the Ascension . A Midjourney image"became an overnight social media sensation" in the wake of the wider media storm over Dr De Caro's study. Uncanny how much it looks like Newton. FeydHuxtable (talk) 20:31, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

But it is expected that he made a selfie using the Shroud before he got beamed up? This is so weird. --Hob Gadling (talk) 05:44, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

The following link (click here) claims that: "Jesus’ blood type is the ultra-rare AB+ that universally accepts all other blood types, but is not accepted by any other blood types (probably symbolic of the reality that none can truly come to Christ unless God the Father draws him). This blood type, while extremely rare, has a slightly higher incidence among people of Middle Eastern descent, confirming Jesus’ incarnation and Abrahamic descent."

The close-up of the face currently featured on the article is not reliable, because it is an 'enhanced' image. Unaltered close-ups on the link provided, however, could certainly pass for 1st Century Eastern Mediterranean. (click here)

It wasn't until several centuries after the beginnings of Christianity, that the Arab expansion changed the demographics of the Eastern Mediterranean. Before this, the region had been a cross-cultural hub of three major continents.

In the Acts of the Apostles, there were visiting Arabs among the first Christians at Pentecost (Acts 2:20 - "Both Jews and converts to Judaism, Cretans and Arabs — We hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”). A prophecy about Jesus is explained to a visiting Nubian African, and a devout centurion hears the Gospel in Caesarea.

In the 1st Century, the Eastern Mediterranean was also multi-lingual, with Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek and Latin each being widely spoken (among numerous other languages). 2600:8801:CA00:DDD0:B056:93A8:3C89:6F47 (talk) 02:35, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

We are not interested in your blog. Take your blog elsewhere. tgeorgescu (talk) 03:46, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

I was referencing the photo provided on the blog.

For the blood type, blood samples were taken from the Shroud itself. 2600:8801:CA00:DDD0:30C7:EDE7:7CA7:7B03 (talk) 21:12, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Listen, pal: the theology of bloodtype is a hoax. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:16, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

The theological take on it wasn't the point, it was that this rare blood type has a slightly higher incidence among Middle Easterners. 2600:8801:CA00:DDD0:30C7:EDE7:7CA7:7B03 (talk) 21:18, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

To correct my earlier comment, I'm not actually certain whether the current face image has been artificially-enhanced, after all.

An earlier topic on the subject mistakenly referred to this image as created by a religious artist through filtering, but the artist's concept referred to is actually another image entirely.

What I have noticed in comparing genuine photos, is that different degrees of light exposure seem to differently affect the dimensions of the facial features, making it seemingly impossible to know what the most accurate exposure is.

However, in all cases, the face looks (in my opinion) to be ancient Semitic. The proportions also match Byzantine depictions while they purportedly had the Shroud, using it as a model for coinage and religious art. 2600:8801:CA00:DDD0:30C7:EDE7:7CA7:7B03 (talk) 21:49, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

WP:CITE mainstream WP:SOURCES or be gone from this talk page. We are not interested in your musings. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:31, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether you realize this or not, but you come across as arrogant.

Many people were talking about this without citing a source for every statement they make. This is a talk page, not the article itself. And I was entirely on subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8801:CA00:DDD0:80E4:FA80:87BA:2BF0 (talk) 22:23, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

This talk page is for discussing improvements to the article. Citing you own blog does not improve the article in any way. You're just WP:SOAPBOXING your blog. tgeorgescu (talk) 23:07, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree that I could have quoted a reliable source about the blood type test instead of referencing a blog.

This very subject, however, 'The face of Jesus is European', is entirely subjective and quotes no references at all. The person who started it is being entirely speculative, whereas a blood type test from the Shroud whose results parallels Middle Eastern incidence, is based on research and fact.

And so it would be more a matter of quoting the correct sources. Don't you agree? 2600:8801:CA00:DDD0:C40F:E514:353C:8183 (talk) 16:39, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes... where are those sources? Theroadislong (talk) 17:17, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Comparing the blood on both the Shroud and Sudarium (head cloth) -

"Blood on each of the fabrics match (AB +).. Blood from a human male that is most commonly found in the Middle East was identified on each."

The ethnic identification must be from an analysis of the blood's DNA.

The quote just cited is from the Digital Access to Scholarship at Harvard:Click here

Here's the rest of it:

An Analysis of the DNA and Hematological [blood study] Findings of the Shroud of Turin and the Sudarium of Oviedo

Citation

Dreschnack, Paul Alan. 2023. An Analysis of the DNA and Hematological Findings of the Shroud of Turin and the Sudarium of Oviedo. Master's thesis, Harvard University Division of Continuing Education.

Abstract

The Shroud of Turin and the Sudarium of Oviedo are the two most studied, examined, and analyzed historical artifacts in human existence. No doubt, they are also the most famous. Numerous coincidences exist that have captured the hearts and imaginations of audiences for centuries. Several high-profile scientific inquiries have been initiated in the past few decades. They have been studied extensively and comprehensively. But to what avail? They are examined independently, but there is a lack of collaboration of information and sharing of data, which could be very helpful to all the scientists involved.

It has been established that there is historical significance of these two fabrics, having originated in deaths that modern law would readily classify as a homicide. Uniquely killed by crucifixion, and then removed for burial in a time when this did not serve the Roman objective of visually offensive execution.

[The Blood Type]

Blood on each of the fabrics match (AB (+)), and the location of the blood stains matches as well [i.e., comparing the Shroud and Sudarium]. Blood from a human male that is most commonly found in the Middle East was identified on each. The stains superimpose on each other.

[Pollen and Tourist DNA]

DNA analysis performed at the University of Padua traced the path across Europe from Jerusalem to Turin by examining the surface pollen. On its journey, many people venerated it, and added their DNA to what was already present. Contamination is extensive.

[Conclusion]

More studies need to be done. We are examining the only remaining evidence of a violent crime. If there is evidence of a unique singular origin, the implications are more than theological. Even scientifically and medically speaking, it is more than a matter of faith. It already is a legend. 2600:8801:CA00:DDD0:C40F:E514:353C:8183 (talk) 22:42, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

According to Google, one of these ladies is Italian (European), and one is Palestinian (Asian). Can you tell at a glance which is which? [1] .. [2] Wdford (talk) 20:11, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Firstly, the typing of the blood on the Shroud has been questioned, and it is highly uncertain if it can even be typed accurately. [3] Second, AB+ blood is found all over the world. According to Wikipedia, it is highest in North Korea, followed by Japan, Bangladesh and Uzbekistan. Israel is also on the upper end, equal with Finland and Poland but behind India and many other nations. This "evidence", assuming it even exists, means nothing. [[4]] Third, the original pollen would have been washed away by the many attempts in medieval times to wash away the image itself. Modern studies of the pollen have found pollens from everywhere, including North America. This has long since been discarded as "evidence" of anything. Wdford (talk) 13:02, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

"We are examining the only remaining evidence of a violent crime." if that is the premise of the research, then we can disregard it all as utter tosh. Theroadislong (talk) 13:18, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

From what I understand, the pollen samples are not the strongest point of evidence for the Shroud. However, that wasn't the reason I shared this essay — It was about the blood testing and giving the quote in context.

The point was that there have in fact been studies on the blood that concluded a Middle Eastern ancestry. These original studies are what need to be located.

A possibility I already mentioned was that the findings may have had something to do with the DNA of the blood, rather than the blood type.

Yet, even the blood type simply having a higher Mid-East incidence is still relevant.

Although Dreschnack wasn't a Shroud hematologist, his reputable thesis clearly shows that he had dealt with this information and that such studies do exist — studies that may prove more difficult to find online than they were ten years ago, when I first read about them.

Again, the reputable essay quoted, though not the most primary source, does show that blood studies that make these conclusions do, in fact, exist. 2600:8801:CA00:DDD0:F9FB:D595:7A9:696F (talk) 18:04, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

You write "The point was that there have in fact been studies on the blood that concluded a Middle Eastern ancestry." I don't believe that is true. I don't see that in Dreschnack's thesis. The statement in the abstract "Blood from a human male that is most commonly found in the Middle East was identified on each." is just poorly written. As is clear from the thesis itself, the DNA evidence indicated that the blood on the Shroud came from a human male. He does not say that an ethnicity could be determined from it. The phrase "most commonly found in the Middle East" appears to be a reference to the blood type. The fact that type AB blood is slightly more common in the Middle East is not proof or even particularly strong evidence that the blood came from someone from that region. It could just as well have come from a European who happened to have that blood type.

Dreschnack also reports that DNA from ninety-three individuals was found on the Shroud, with haplotypes indicating a wide range of ethnicities. He reasonably asserts that this DNA comes from people who handled the Shroud over the centuries. Skimming through the thesis (which was for a Master's in History) I don't see any actual evidence of anything really surprising. Some speculation about things that would be surprising if they were found to be true and some bullshit, but nothing really surprising with evidence and/or sound logic to back it up.--Srleffler (talk) 01:38, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Also, just half of Jesus's DNA should be human. If his DNA is fully human, then he wasn't conceived by the Holy Spirit. tgeorgescu (talk) 08:56, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

The Bible doesn't teach that Jesus is half-human and half-divine, as if he were a Greek god (The name 'Jesus' isn't based on the god Zeus, by the way; it's actually the Anglicized form of the Greek 'Iesu/Iesus/Ieson', itself a transliteration of the Hebrew, 'Yeshu/Yeshua', or 'Joshua', who led Israel after Moses).

And so, here's how the story goes:

First of all, the 'seed' in the Old Testament (Jewish Tanakh) was always the sperm of the male — However, in one sole instance in the Book of Genesis, Jehovah tells Eve that HER seed (a 'seed' of a woman) would crush the head of the serpent (Satan) who had deceived her (the first woman), leading to the fall of humanity and resulting mortality.

Thus, in fulfillment of the first prophecy recorded in the Bible, Eve's descendant, Mary of Nazareth, miraculously conceived, resulting in Jesus being both fully divine and fully human, so as to conquer death:

If Jesus wasn't fully divine, then he wouldn't have been without sin, and so would have been unable to pay humanity's debt, as the blameless Passover lamb — nor would he have been able to survive God's wrath on our behalf, because he would have been consumed.

And if he wasn't fully human, then he wouldn't have been a fellow-mortal, and wouldn't have been qualified to willingly pay the once-and-for-all penalty for all human error.

What many believe that the image on the Shroud gives supporting evidence for, is that Jesus has in fact succeeded. Thereby, we have an eternally secure hope in a compassionate mediator who, as a loving creator-redeemer, has paid the ultimate price for us and conquered death.

Humanity is in an interim before his multi-dimensionally spectacular return, when all room for doubt will be removed, because the things of faith "will be testified in due time." (1 Timothy 2:6)

Full quote: "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who will have all humans to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." (1 Timothy 2:3-6)

I'm happy to clear that up for you!

There's quite a backstory to this artifact, if it turns out to be the real deal. :) 2600:8801:CA00:DDD0:5471:5B2B:EE96:24F5 (talk) 23:29, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Does anyone have access to the original blood studies?

The mention of higher Mid-East incidence wasn't to prove the authenticity of the Shroud. It was to give some probability of Abrahamic descent, because someone proposed that Jesus looked European (that's what this thread is about). Yet, Abrahamic descent is entwined with authenticity, and so it's important.

If anyone wants to try and disprove the Shroud, as I once did and failed, then once again, I refer to the following much-contested blog that sums up some of the better evidences, with lots of photographic data to evaluate: Click here, if you dare :)

I do suggest giving an honest evaluation.. If it's really him, I've heard that his mama's rather protective of his reputation! :) 2600:8801:CA00:DDD0:5471:5B2B:EE96:24F5 (talk) 23:49, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

UNBALANCED

The description here, although very commendably full of information, is very unbalanced; it's fine - and important - to set out the negatives with solemn intent, but the positives should be given the same level of seriousness and consideration. For example, McCrone is quoted as if his studies were proved, when that's simply not true - if anything, he has been discredited in this respect, as well as in the Vinyards Map studies he did. Again, it's fine to quote what he did, but equal prominence - or even more prominent provision - should be made for the STURP studies which showed (with almost complete agreement) that paint was NOT how the image was created. Many other examples in this piece continue in that vein, which is a shame, because there has been serious work done here to present the issue, the trouble is, the writers should keep their prejudices and beliefs out of it, and simply present the true facts, both positive as well as negative. To do otherwise is to do disservice to Wikipedia as well as the subject.

I could revert the edit again, but I don't see any sense in an edit war, I simply appeal to common sense and good judgement to ask the editors of this piece to think again. Perhaps it was oversight rather than prejudice. I hope so. Matthew.hartington (talk) 13:31, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

It's a myth, propagated by enthusiasts of "sindonology", that McCrone's work on the Shroud of Turin has been debunked. In fact, for that work be was awarded the American Chemical Society's National Award in Analytical Chemistry in 2000, long after the various critiques of his work by members of STURP (which are, incidentally, mentioned and cited in this article) had been published and discussed. You can see a writeup for that award here (go to the sixth page in the PDF). McCrone is really the only expert on the scientific authentication of ancient artifacts who's been allowed to examine the Shroud in any detail. Note also that in 2021 the authorities of Yale's Beinecke Library, which owns the Vinland Map, declared that that map was a fake, for essentially the same reasons that McCrone had given in 1973: see here. - Eb.hoop2 (talk) 14:34, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your concern.

It sounds like you lack an awareness of how unreasonable the opposition has been around here (Check the archives for this talk page, for example).

The Shroud of Turin article has recently been the subject of a hostile take-over that labeled all scientific research as 'fringe'.

If it is not properly maintained, aggressive subversives, who care nothing about a balanced, factual presentation of the data, will start filling the talk page with mockery, uploading warped images that make the body image look elongated, and will continue to defiantly dismiss and defame all scientifically-researched and academically-published data.

And so, if you have citations you can back-up your information with, then please feel free to continue restoring and improving the article. :)

As far as McCrone goes, there is such a thing as high-profile researchers who get paid off, especially when evaluating something as significant and controversial as the Shroud of Turin (not that there aren't also those who might skew the evidence pro-Shroud).

I agree with your statement: "The writers should keep their prejudices and beliefs out of it, and simply present the true facts, both positive as well as negative. To do otherwise is to do disservice to Wikipedia as well as the subject." 2600:8801:CA00:DDD0:5471:5B2B:EE96:24F5 (talk) 22:23, 4 November 2024 (UTC)