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Request for intervention concerning User:Aearthrise[edit]
Original request for assistance containing examples of insults/communication style and individual difflinks
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In little under two years time, a single user (Aearthrise) has basically claimed sole editorship of the Pennsylvania Dutch-article. If statistics are to be believed, Aearthrise has since become the author of over 50% of the articles content and is responsible for 83% of all edits to the article within a two year timeframe. [1] Now there is of course nothing wrong with a single author being prominent or more involved in an article, but I'm afraid that in this particular case it has resulted in significant damage to Wikipedias reliability, neglect of its principles and a severe lack of respectful communication. In practice Aearthrise adds what he wants, deletes what he wants and does so in a manner which I can only describe as browbeating or just plain bullying. Any attempt to engage in a meaningful discussion concerning the articles content is impossible as all of these discussions follow a basic pattern: a question is asked by another user or Aearthrise himself; which is soon followed by a large amount of green quotes from various websites and Google Books. Any attempt to bring in professional literature with an alternative POV is ignored or waved away and the discussion quickly gets unnecessarily personal and unpleasant. Exploring or questioning the validity or reliability of the green quotes is equally not appreciated. Regardless of arguments made, sources provided or discussed: Aearthrise does what he wants. Currently there are 4 talk page discussions involving Aearthrise, which I've tried to describe and summarize below. I've added diff links and excerpts which (I hope) give a good idea of the problem at hand, but would advise anyone involved to read the talk page itself and check the recent article history to get the complete picture; especially concerning the first one as I feel it illustrates Aearthrises attitude and debating style as no other. In the first talk page discussion involving him, Aearthrise reverts an edit made by @47thPennVols: several times and then posts a comment on the talk page, asking for a source on how ″Dutchman″ can be considered a slur for some Pennsylvania Dutch. The entire discussion can be read here. At one point 47thPennVols, who remains friendly and professional throughout the entire conversation, curiously asks why Aearthrise (a user who claims to be a French Louisianian from New Orleans) has such an intense interest in Pennsylvania Dutch history. To which Aearthrise replies:
Reacting to this and the issue at hand, 47thPennVols posts a comment which can really only be described as heartfelt, well-meaning and constructive. In this comment she gives her condolences, tries to make a personal connection and goes on to explain why he wants to address the issue raised and explicitly says he wants to reach a workable middle road.[3] It receives a single sentence reply: What is your citation that "Pennsylvania Dutchman" is a derogatory term for the PA Dutch people? [4] — despite the fact that 47thPennVols already gave her citation. To his credit, 47thPennVols stays on topic and expresses her concern with the 5 quotes that Aearthrise previously provided. 47thPennVols explains that the publisher of some of these sources (Stackpole Books) has come under scrutiny on Wikipedia over the years and is not considered to meet Wikipedia quality standards. He also goes on to cite an academic review of one of the sources provided by Aearthrise, which said the source contained ″numerous errors″, ″interpretive and rhetorical overstatements″ and ″needs to be handled with care″.[5] Instead of reflecting on the sources used, Aearthrise doubles down, writing:
and;
47thPennVols then writes:
Aearthrise responds twice to this, in a manner which speaks for itself:
and;
Regrettably but understandably, 47thPennVols gave up his attempts to edit and improve the article. The second talk page discussion involving Aearthrise concerns a long bilingual quote that Aearthrise has added to the article. The quote is very wordy (in fact the quote has a higher word count than the section its in) but the main point of disagreement is that Aearthrise insists that the original Pennsylvania German quote (from a book published in 1903) should use the Fraktur font — which 𝔴𝔥𝔦𝔠𝔥 𝔩𝔬𝔬𝔨𝔰 𝔩𝔦𝔨𝔢 𝔱𝔥𝔦𝔰 and is something highly uncommon if not nonexistent on Wikipedia and in professional literature. When @Theodore Christopher: addressed this, a very unpleasant discussion again unfolds, which can be read here in full but contains remarks directed at Theodore Christopher such as:
Theodore Christophers edit were repeatedly reverted by Aearthrise and he (once again, regrettably but understandably) stopped engaging with the article. When I joined this discussion some time later and wrote I fully supported Theodore Christophers changes and argumentation, this too was ignored or waved away and edits reverted multiple times. The third talk page discussion involves a NPOV-dispute concerning the etymology of ″Dutch″ in ″Pennsylvania Dutch″. There seem to be two main trains of thought: one is that Dutch was used in an older broader meaning, the other that is an anglicization of the Pennsylvania Dutch word for themselves ″deitsch″. Both views have reputable academic publications behind them and are widespread among scholars. Per WP:NPOV, both views should be represented in the article, as they were in the past and are represented on other Wikipedias. Aearthrise opposes this, considering one view to be ″the truth″ [18] and the other nonsense and again and again [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] removed the second view from the article. The pattern described at the beginning again appears: large amounts of quotes are spammed on the talk page. Most are from travel blogs, personal websites or books that are well over a hundred years (1900, 1870) old, followed by insulting or suggestive remarks:
I came to the same conclusion as 47thPennVols before me in realizing that a discussion with Aearthrise wasn't going to go anywhere, so I made a Request for Comment-request to try and persuade others to voice their opinions on the matter. As I'm writing this, I don't think that RfC is going to be very successful as it immediately got spammed with large amount of green texts and personal remarks which have nothing to do with the purpose or subject of the RfC. At one point, he started adding large amounts of text to comments that had already been replied to [28] and despite explicit requests and warnings not to do this, he continued anyway [29]. In the fourth discussion involving Aearthrise an anonymous IP asked the perfectly normal question if there was a source for the claim that Elon Musk is of Pennsylvania Dutch ancestry, to which Aearthrises replied:
He has my sympathies for losing his Pennsylvania Dutch grandfather, but this has clearly resulted in a case of WP:OWN with regards to this article. Aearthrises behavior has resulted in many unreliable and/or outdated material finding its way into the article, it's been tailored to his personal preference to the point of the fonts used and the talk page and article history clearly show that he is unwilling to accept additional or alternative points of views, even when valid and reliable sources are clearly provided. In addition to the harm being done to the reliability and neutrality of the article, his aggressive, insulting and bullying style of communicating is driving other committed users away from an article which is not very well known or has many involved editors to begin with and is preventing improvements or changes to the article being made. This needs to stop before it gets out of hand even more than it already has. Wikipedias principles on personal attacks, proper use of sources and NPOV need to come out on top and I would therefore kindly ask you to intervene in this matter. Vlaemink (talk) 21:37, 20 June 2024 (UTC) |
Original response indicating Vlaemink's attempt to avoid direct argumentation
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Vlaemink has continually made poor arguments not based on hard evidence; every single point i've made in our discussion includes evidence. Vlaemink added false information to the article, and also attempted to make an anecdotal argument equal to one that is filled with a plethora of hard evidence. Vlaemink has showed he doesn't want to argue and has deleted my arguments several times on the discussion page; he would rather play a game of ego rather than prove that his information is correct through well-reasoned arguments. All of my edits are based on citations and evidence that are reasonable and well-sourced. Vlaemink here has cherrypicked four arguments, one from 47thPennVols that was completely based on his personal opinion, and which he could not provide evidence for. He tried to talk around the issue instead of providing evidence. The second, from Theodore Christopher whose whole argument was based on treating a specific Fraktur variety of Pennsylvania Dutch language, that was made to be rendered in Fraktur for historic reasons, the same as German language, which I argued was incorrect and should be treated differently, due to the circumstances around this form of language, and that Pennsylvania Dutch language is completely separate to German language. He kept returning to the same point about how we treat standard German without addressing any of the points of contention I gave. The third is Vlaemink's own argument about adding content that, partially was misleading, and another part completely false; I talked to him about how parts of his added content were misleading, but he didn't want to address the argument. The fourth is an anonymous IP who said "The section talking about famous folks of PA Dutch decent says family of Elon Musk. Is this correct? Can this be substantiated with any evidence?", with a source of evidence right next to the word Elon Musk. I produced 4 more quotes in addition to that one, and wrote my response in a way to show the hubris of taking the time to write a whole section on the talk page, but not taking easy steps to view the evidence already provided, which is why I called it lazy. Vlaemink wants to say that I claimed ownership of the article, but that's not true at all. I improved the article's quality and content with cited material. He claims "signficant damage" to Wikipedia, but includes no evidence for this claim other than points of his bruised ego from himself having not made good arguments for his addition of content. He wants to make you believe that this whole article is questionable now on nothing more than his word. |
Hello admins, I ask you to intervene in a matter concerning Aearthrise and the article Pennsylvania Dutch, which I believe is harming Wikipedia. I made a previous request which was too long and detailed; it can be found in the above collapsable for specific insults and more difflinks and here is article's talk page.
In under two years, Aearthrise has dominated the Pennsylvania Dutch article, contributing over 50% of its content and making 83% of all edits.[31][32] While single authorship isn't inherently problematic, in this case, it has led to significant damage to Wikipedia's reliability, neglect of its principles, and a lack of respectful communication. Aearthrise adds and deletes content as he pleases, often in a bullying manner. Meaningful discussions about the article’s content are impossible. Attempts to introduce alternative perspectives are ignored, and discussions quickly become personal and unpleasant. Regardless of the arguments or sources provided, Aearthrise does what he wants. Four talk page discussions illustrate these issues.
In the first discussion, Aearthrise reverted edits by @47thPennVols:: and demanded a source on how "Dutchman" can be considered a slur. 47thPennVols provided a citation and raised concerns about Aearthrise’s sources, which were aggressively and unilaterally dismissed. 47thPennVols eventually gave up on editing the article.[33][34][35] [36][37][38][39][40] The second discussion involves a long bilingual quote added by Aearthrise in Fraktur font, highly uncommon on Wikipedia. When @Theodore Christopher:: addressed this, a very unpleasant discussion ensued. Aearthrise made derogatory remarks and repeatedly reverted Christopher’s edits. My support for Christopher’s changes was also ignored.[41][42][43][44][45][46][47] The third discussion is a NPOV-dispute about the etymology of "Dutch" in "Pennsylvania Dutch." Both views should be represented, but Aearthrise opposes one view and repeatedly removes it, despite valid sources. He spams the talk page with quotes from unreliable sources and insults, questioning others’ motives. An RfC was similarly spammed, deterring other participants.[48][49][50] [51][52][53] In the fourth discussion, an anonymous IP asked for a source on Elon Musk’s Pennsylvania Dutch ancestry. Aearthrise responded insultingly and added text from questionable websites.[54]
Aearthrise’s behavior has led to unreliable and outdated materials in the article. His aggressive, insulting, and bullying style drives committed users away, preventing improvements. This must stop before it worsens. Wikipedia's principles on personal attacks, proper use of sources, and NPOV must prevail. I kindly ask you to intervene in this matter and hope my description of the problem is now brief enough to be workable. Vlaemink (talk) 06:57, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- I'm condensing this section because Vlaemink has edited his original post to make it smaller, and is making different claims now.
- He claims that 1.my challenging 47thPennVols insulted him, so it scared him away; this is untrue, as I asked for evidence for the opinion he was presenting, but he did not produce anything beyond a weak quote unrelated to the topic.
- 2. Vlaemink claims I made derogatory remarks and reverted Theodore Christopher comments; none of those links he added shows "derogatory remarks", it's just long-winded debate, and for the reversion, it's because Theodore Christopher completely removed content, which I challenged the removal, and we subsequently discussed it.
- 3.Vlaemink's problem is not the addition of content (beyond the false content he added), but rather the misleading nature of equating a consensus based on an abundance of hard evidence with an anecdotal folk etymology debunked by experts on the topic.
- 4. Vlaemink says I insulted the anonymous IP by calling him lazy for asking for evidence, when evidence was already present on the article, attached directly to the information he read; the anonymous IP didn't at all make the post about reliability. Now, on this thread, Valemink is now claiming these are questionable websites. Forbes is a questionable website? I don't think so, and if it is this isn't the place to discuss that, it should be done the article's talk page. Aearthrise (talk) 22:02, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Vlaemink and @Aearthrise these are both quite extensive walls of text. It is far more than I and many other editors or indeed administrators (all of whom, remember, are volunteers contributing in their spare time) will have time to read. I'm sure you both carefully crafted your comments and were aiming for completeness but I'd urge you both to condense your concerns down to the most salient points. Adam Black talk • contribs 22:10, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
- I can condense this whole argument: Vlaemink is mad that because he can't argue with hard evidence, he would rather make an ego-filled post here to administrators about how my words could hurt people's feelings, instead of actually providing well-sourced proof for his arguments. Vlaemink wants an administrator to step in and save him, rather than address the points of discussion. Aearthrise (talk) 22:17, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
- This type of combative WP:BATTLEGROUND response doesn't exactly defend yourself well from the complaints above. The Kip (contribs) 23:19, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
- That's your opinion, but it doesn't change the fact that this whole post is about how Vlaemink says my words may hurt other people's feelings, and that he made it here because he wasn't willing to wait for comment on the article's talk page (he already put in a request for comment); his arguments weren't convincing through discussion and evidence, which is why he is taking the route of notifying administrators- his actions show that he's not confident that he can win with his own arguments. Aearthrise (talk) 09:28, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is not about ″winning arguments″, it's about finding sources and finding consensus. The fact that I asked for a third opinion, RfC and now have taken to the Administrators Noticeboard is anything but a sign that I do not believe in the validly of my sources and the need for their inclusion.Vlaemink (talk) 13:25, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is about showing what is verifiable and true, and that is "winning arguments"; Wikipedia is all based on evidence. There is no evidence that Dutch is just a corruption beyond that people have said it. The consensus on the origin of Dutch has an abudance of evidence to show why it's correct, and that's the view scholarship accepts. Aearthrise (talk) 15:16, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Any Wikipedian familiar with Wikipedia's principles can tell (and show you) why that is completely false: Wikipedia does not show what is ″true″, it repeats and summarizes what has been written about a particular issue by reliable and valid authors. And if there are multiple views, then multiple views are to be mentioned to provide the reader with the full scope of an article. This an encyclopedia, not a bundle of personal essays. Vlaemink (talk) 18:44, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is about showing what is verifiable and true, and that is "winning arguments"; Wikipedia is all based on evidence. There is no evidence that Dutch is just a corruption beyond that people have said it. The consensus on the origin of Dutch has an abudance of evidence to show why it's correct, and that's the view scholarship accepts. Aearthrise (talk) 15:16, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is not about ″winning arguments″, it's about finding sources and finding consensus. The fact that I asked for a third opinion, RfC and now have taken to the Administrators Noticeboard is anything but a sign that I do not believe in the validly of my sources and the need for their inclusion.Vlaemink (talk) 13:25, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- That's your opinion, but it doesn't change the fact that this whole post is about how Vlaemink says my words may hurt other people's feelings, and that he made it here because he wasn't willing to wait for comment on the article's talk page (he already put in a request for comment); his arguments weren't convincing through discussion and evidence, which is why he is taking the route of notifying administrators- his actions show that he's not confident that he can win with his own arguments. Aearthrise (talk) 09:28, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- This type of combative WP:BATTLEGROUND response doesn't exactly defend yourself well from the complaints above. The Kip (contribs) 23:19, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
- I can condense this whole argument: Vlaemink is mad that because he can't argue with hard evidence, he would rather make an ego-filled post here to administrators about how my words could hurt people's feelings, instead of actually providing well-sourced proof for his arguments. Vlaemink wants an administrator to step in and save him, rather than address the points of discussion. Aearthrise (talk) 22:17, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Vlaemink and @Aearthrise these are both quite extensive walls of text. It is far more than I and many other editors or indeed administrators (all of whom, remember, are volunteers contributing in their spare time) will have time to read. I'm sure you both carefully crafted your comments and were aiming for completeness but I'd urge you both to condense your concerns down to the most salient points. Adam Black talk • contribs 22:10, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
- That is 2000 words. You'll need to cut that down by like 75 percent at least. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:07, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
- While this is far too long, I'll just say that from inspection, Vlaemink raises some good points, and Aearthrise needs to adjust their behavior even if they're right (which I don't think is a given). In #4, an IP address asked a harmless question, and Aearthrise was pointlessly rude and insulting, and even made their case seem worse by linking some truly awful sources like random websites with "A brief biography of Elon Musk for young kids" (looks obviously AI generated! Terrible formatting, alien wording! [55]). See WP:BITE, there's no need to be hostile to a standard question, just politely link your source and move on, or ignore it. (And frankly, given Musk's reality distortion field, it wouldn't shock me if it was at least possible that someone just made it up in the past, so there is an interesting question here.) For #2, We absolutely don't do fancy Fraktur fonts because it was contemporary, and I don't think the Miller quote is worth including at all, let alone 4 full paragraphs of it that is extremely partial (I'm sorry, but Eastern Pennsylvania was not the "model of the world" for agriculture, the good professor was deluded, why are we quoting this guy). Aearthrise claims that German nationalism only existed in the "late 19th century" (diff), which is 1000% false to anyone who knows anything about the German question. For #1, I'd argue that one Aearthrise has a point on the merits, but he was still needlessly hostile on the talk page, seeming to invoke ownership rather than finding some compromise, like a footnote discussing the issue from both sides. Similarly, for #3, even if we grant for a moment that Aearthrise is correct (we'd need someone uninvolved to examine the literature), then there's probably an interesting missing section about the "folk etymology", its supporters, and reliable sources on why it's wrong. Instead of just deleting it outright. SnowFire (talk) 23:35, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
- Well, I read all of the comments here and Aearthrise, if you can honestly read all of this evidence and blame it all on a "hurt ego", it shows to me that you are taking this too personally and refusing to address the merits of the complaint. Of course no one likes to be criticized but there is some unreasonable and uncivil behavior on your part that you can't wave off with a "hurt ego" comment. Liz Read! Talk! 03:39, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- I addressed the merits of the complaint, but my point of contention was that Vlaemink was misleading people by equating anecdotal evidence with the consensus explanation of "Dutch" by linguists and experts, proven by an abundance of hard evidence. Vlaemink refused to revise the content he wrote, and included false content at the same time. Aearthrise (talk) 09:19, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Well, I read all of the comments here and Aearthrise, if you can honestly read all of this evidence and blame it all on a "hurt ego", it shows to me that you are taking this too personally and refusing to address the merits of the complaint. Of course no one likes to be criticized but there is some unreasonable and uncivil behavior on your part that you can't wave off with a "hurt ego" comment. Liz Read! Talk! 03:39, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- You can repeat this time and again, that etymology A consists of ″anecdotal evidence″ and etymology B does not — but it doesn't make it so. It's a debate tactic, it's not based on the sources provided. The talk page contains numerous publications by reputable authors which subscribe to etymology A, and this alone shows that a ″consensus explanation proven by an abundance of hard evidence″ does not exist. One of the authors supporting etymology B even explicitly mentions the fact that etymology A is mainstream among nonscholars and scholars alike. A Wikipedia editor is supposed to report on relevant view from reliable publications, we are not here to create our own preferred version of reality. This is the core issue here. Vlaemink (talk) 13:21, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- You show you don't want to cooperate on this article, because you ignore the points of contention and want to make the claim based on anecdote equal to the one based on heavy evidence, and is the consensus view on the origin of Dutch.
- You don't want to acknowledge how equating these arguments is misleading, and that's the whole problem, not whether we include the information at all. Aearthrise (talk) 15:11, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- You can repeat this time and again, that etymology A consists of ″anecdotal evidence″ and etymology B does not — but it doesn't make it so. It's a debate tactic, it's not based on the sources provided. The talk page contains numerous publications by reputable authors which subscribe to etymology A, and this alone shows that a ″consensus explanation proven by an abundance of hard evidence″ does not exist. One of the authors supporting etymology B even explicitly mentions the fact that etymology A is mainstream among nonscholars and scholars alike. A Wikipedia editor is supposed to report on relevant view from reliable publications, we are not here to create our own preferred version of reality. This is the core issue here. Vlaemink (talk) 13:21, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- @SnowFire: I didn't claim German nationalism only existed in the "late 19th century" as you're claiming from that revert link, but if it is a point of contention, it can be easily discussed and proven or disproven with proper evidence. I didn't revert Vlaemink's revision because of when German nationalism started, it was because he deleted a lot of content, and for his inclusion of false information, that High Dutch was a calque of "Hochdeutsch", false and not substantiated by the sources added, and misleading content which was saying there was confusion by linguists about an anecdotal folk etymology while there is consensus of the historic of use of "Dutch" backed by an abundance of hard evidence. There is no problem with adding a footnote, but Vlaemink did not want to change his position on the way of writing the content, because he wanted to present them as equal arguments.
- You talk about the quotes for Elon Musk, which as I said were all easily found on a quick Google, and you only mention one, being the last quote. The others are Forbes.com, Industrytap.com, etc.
- As for the Fraktur, which you're trying to dismiss in the same way as Theodore (who called it ridiculous), and Vlaemink who called it (ludicrous), i've spoken at length on the discussion page why it should presented in that form, as it is a classical literary variety of Pennsylvania Dutch written specifically in Fraktur as a way to fight against the complete loss of German education in Pennsylvania. The Fraktur wasn't only a circumstance of being written at that time as you want to claim, it was consciously written like that to be an opposition to fight against the "Englisha rule" Pennsylvania Dutch, which was simply the spoken language of the time written in an English way, and part of the reason it was ridiculed.
- For the quote by Daniel Miller itself, it painted very well the feeling of the prejudice faced against the Pennsylvania Dutch community, and that was the point of the paragraph. Your nitpick is on how Dr.Miller showed that emotion towards the prejudice, and are making an argument about his words aimed at uplifting a marginalized people.
- As for invoking ownership, there is no proof for that claim, unless you're basing it on the passion i've shown to make this a quality article. I always want people to challenge content on Wikipedia, but the content should well-sourced, and if there is confusion about content, it can be discussed until a resolution is made, based on the best argument and best evidence. Aearthrise (talk) 09:17, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Leaving aside a literal declaration of ownership, there is plenty of clear evidence that you are behaving as if you own this article:
- Over half of the current article content was added by you in less than two years and your edits make up 83% of the total during that period. [56] — and these edits did not come about in a collaborative and constructive way: you are unnecessarily aggressive and insulting.
- Prior to 2022 you did not edit this article. You described yourself as a Louisiana Cajun living in New Orleans, and a professional translator proficient in English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Latin, Greek, Italian and Romanian.[57].
- After 2022, you stated that your grandfather was Pennsylvania Dutch and claimed to speak Pennsylvania German.[58] You started to edit the article intensely and at one point even claimed that you yourself were in fact Pennsylvania Dutch, as evidenced by a remark in which you accused a fellow editor of ″not even speaking the language nor knowing our cultural traits″ [59] and explicitly stated that you edit the article because it ″helps you to connect with my German heritage″ [60].
- And therein lies the problem, because that's only half the story. It's clear to me (and I hope also to others) that it's not just your desire to connect or explore your heritage but also a clear desire to shape your claimed heritage to your own personal liking. If you were truly interested and invested in this article, you would welcome every possible view, nuance and sourced addition to the article. Instead, you seem to exclusively want to see your own personal views and preferences in the article page and get abusive as soon as anyone dares to challenge or even as much as doubt it. That's a clear example of WP:OWN-behavior and I really do not see how you can objectively deny this given all the evidence and examples provided. Vlaemink (talk) 10:02, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Vlaemink, as someone who agrees with you, Aearthrise's cultural background is irrelevant, and I'd recommend dropping the topic. Judge by actions here, not possible motives. The sole thing that matters is refusing to work with others to improve the article and instead insisting on "their" view. SnowFire (talk) 10:10, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- @SnowFire: You are right, I should have stuck to the refusal to cooperate and ignoring of alternative POVs.Vlaemink (talk) 13:28, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- The refusal to cooperate is on your side. You don't want to listen to opposition and work towards a solution; it's not about ignoring alternative points of view, it's about making points of view that are weak equal to ones that are very strong, based on hard evidence. Aearthrise (talk) 15:27, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- @SnowFire: You are right, I should have stuck to the refusal to cooperate and ignoring of alternative POVs.Vlaemink (talk) 13:28, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- The problem being identified in the discussion of personal background is the rather blatant inconsistency of the claims, suggesting strongly a history of dishonesty. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 11:19, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- You want to purport that sharing self-identity on the talk page this platform is supposed be an "inconsistency of the claims", and say the writing self-identity on the talk pages "strongly suggests a history of dishonesty". This is an incorrect statement, and users should be able identify however they want on their talk pages, without being harassed about it. Aearthrise (talk) 14:59, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Vlaemink, you are doing everything to try to save face. You claim WP:OWN, but your only evidence is that I added more than over 50% of the current content on the article, that my talk page identifies me in a certain way, and finally a cherry picked quote from the discussion about treatment of Pennsylania Dutch language in the Fraktur discussion with Theodore Christopher, which his whole argument was based around how we treat standard German.
- You're using personal information now to try to prove that I claim ownership on the article, but all you're doing is making a discussion of who I am as person. Aearthrise (talk) 10:11, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Vlaemink, as someone who agrees with you, Aearthrise's cultural background is irrelevant, and I'd recommend dropping the topic. Judge by actions here, not possible motives. The sole thing that matters is refusing to work with others to improve the article and instead insisting on "their" view. SnowFire (talk) 10:10, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Leaving aside a literal declaration of ownership, there is plenty of clear evidence that you are behaving as if you own this article:
- (de-indent, reply to Aearthrise above, but it seems Vlaemink decided to reply there instead): I'm going to try to keep this brief. A), Yes you did make such a claim on German nationalism, it's right in the linked diff above (and the incorrect statement wasn't in the version of the article in 2022 before your revisions), but if you're saying it was a good edit of Vlaemink's accidentally swept up in the undo, fine, glad we agree. B) Okay, so your sources are right and Vlaemink's are wrong on etymologies. Put a pin in this. C) You clearly aren't understanding The Problems in what I wrote on the IP's Musk question. C1) How would you react if someone on a talk page asks what is in your view a simple and easily answered question in the future? The same way or different? Why? C2) I agree that the Forbes article is the real source. I was saying you only should have linked that before. Instead you linked obvious chatbot splurge as "proof" as well. This suggests you thought it was real proof. This does not speak well for your discerning judgment in figuring out which sources are reliable and which aren't - do you understand that? Everybody makes mistakes, it's no big deal, I've personally trusted some awful sources in retrospect. But an editor who makes mistakes, refuses to acknowledge them after they're pointed out, and then basically invokes their own judgment on which other sources are reliable (say in case B on etymologies) as unquestionable is treading on thin ice. (SnowFire, interjection by Vlaemink)
- @SnowFire: I hope you don't mind me placing this small comment in between your comment, but the sources I've provided on etymology A are valid, reliable, and cited in full on the talk page. Also, Aearthrise is trying his utmost to frame this as ″my theory″, but I've provided sources on both etymologies and have no personal preference; my POV is that both should be mentioned as they both appear in the scholarly field.Vlaemink (talk) 13:15, 21 June 2024 (UTC) (SnowFire again:)
- That was meant only as a summary of Aearthrise's argument that I'd loop back to (hence the "put a pin in it"). I'm not saying he's actually right about everything and you're wrong about everything. SnowFire (talk) 13:21, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for clarifying that, I misunderstood. English is not my native language and I think I got my idioms mixed up.Vlaemink (talk) 13:33, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- You claim i'm trying to frame this as your theory, but show no proof of it. The point of contention, and we've repeated this several times, is the consensus around the origin of the word "Dutch" in English. The other theory has been debunked by experts of the topic, and the debunking is based on a plethora of hard evidence.
- You haven't tried to revise your work as of yet, and you still want to present them as equal arguments. Wikipedia is based on what you can prove, and you can prove that some people mention it as the etymology of Dutch in English, but it has no evidence behind it beyond anecdote.
- Oxford for example lays the term out perfectly
"from Middle Dutch dutsch ‘Dutch, Netherlandish, German’: the English word originally denoted speakers of both High and Low German, but became more specific after the United Provinces adopted the Low German of Holland as the national language on independence in 1579."
. Oxford on the same page explicitly mentions the Pennsylvania Dutch as an example that falls under the historic use:The German language, in any of its forms. Obsolete except in High Dutch n. A.1a; Low Dutch — Pennsylvania Dutch, a degraded form of High German (originally from the Rhine Palatinate and Switzerland) spoken by the descendants of the original German settlers in Pennsylvania.
Aearthrise (talk) 15:08, 21 June 2024 (UTC)- At this point I think there can only be two options: either you never understood what is being discussed to begin with or you did but are now purposely creating a smoke screen: nobody is contesting that the word ″Dutch″ at one point had an older, broader meaning in English which, in today's terms, could also include Germans. I wouldn't be able to name a single professional etymological or historical linguistic publication that has ever disputed that. That's not what being discussed here: the issue is not whether ″Dutch″ had additional meanings in the past, but why the ″Pennsylvania Dutch″ are called ″Dutch″ — and that question has at least two possible answers. Yoder in his 1980 article assumes ″Dutch″ is a relic of an earlier meaning surviving in American English, another explanation found in reliable sources is that its an Anglicization of ″deitsch″ or ″deutsch″. That's two theories, both of which should be mentioned in the article. The fact that (etymological) dictionaries prove that ″Dutch″ had a more diverse meaning the past does not mean they validate or prove Yoders hypothesis, it merely means Yoder used a historical dictionary as part of his explanation. Your quote from an 1897 Oxford Etymological dictionary entry (which also defines Pennsylvania Dutch as ″degraded German″) is in the same ballpark: it supports Yoder, but this has no relevance on the fact that other scholars hold a different view and that this view should be included per WP:NPOV. Louder already explicitly mentioned the popularity of the alternative among scholars, proving its relevance and further casting doubt on your continually repeated claim that a ″total consensus″ exists on the matter. Vlaemink (talk) 18:26, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- First, this Oxford post is from the online dictionary, which they've updated with all of the information they've collected, so you're claim that it's just an 1897 quote is unsubstantiated here. You say "Louder already explicitly mentioned the popularity of the alternative among scholars, proving its relevance". Dr. Louden like Dr.Yoder explicitly states that this idea is incorrect, and he provides reasoning why, the same that I have presented to you over the past few days.
- Dr.Louden says:
"Contrary to a widespread belief among both nonscholars and scholars, though, the Dutch in Pennsylvania Dutch is not a historical mistranslation of the native word Deitsch..."
, and Dr. Yoder was quoted:Dr. Don Yoder, father of American Folklife Studies, and co-founder of the Kutztown Folk Festival, tackled this question in 1950 for previous generations: “When they stepped off the boat at Philadelphia, they were called by the English-speaking people ‘Dutch’ and ‘Dutchmen.’ This term was not, as you often erroneously hear, invented in America as a mispronunciation of the German word ‘Deutsch’ which means ‘German.’ No, ‘Dutch’ was in 1750 already an ancient and well-established term. It has been traced by the Oxford English Dictionary as far back as the late Middle Ages.”
- Online beyond Oxford, the University of Wisconsin-Madison clearly shows
Although scholars and some language advocates prefer the term “Pennsylvania German,” the use of “Dutch” here does not reflect a (mis)translation of “Deutsch” or “Deitsch.” The English word “Dutch” was used in earlier times to describe people of both German and Netherlandic origins...
. I can produce so many more quotes and evidence, so many already being on the article's talk page. - You're still trying to push the definition not based on any hard evidence to be equal to one that does. Your thought process is like using a paper tiger. You can't prove it isn't a tiger by looking at it, but it doesn't hold the weight of a true tiger.
- This is the whole point of contention, which your unwillingness to compromise has lead you to create several RFC requests, and being impatient, skipped over them to make this call to administrators because you're not getting your way. Aearthrise (talk) 20:14, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Louden does not provide any reasoning why the alternative is incorrect, he defers to Yoder as anyone looking up the source can see for her or himself. If you take a close look at the online Oxford Etymological Dictionary (which is an active project, not a finished dictionary) you'll find (in the top left corner a disclaimer stating whether an entry has been revised since 1897 or (as in this case) not. Vlaemink (talk) 20:41, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Louden does provide reasoning why the alternative is incorrect. The expanded quote, from his book "Pennsylvania Dutch: The Story of an American Language" reads
"Contrary to a widespread belief among both nonscholars and scholars, though, the Dutch in Pennsylvania Dutch is not a historical mistranslation of the native word Deitsch, as earlier pointed out by Don Yoder. Although the words Deitsch and Dutch do share a common Germanic etymology, both German and Dutch were used in earlier American English to mean 'German.' The two synonyms differed in terms of formality. The word German, which was borrowed from Latin, traditionally had a neutral or formal connotation, while Dutch was used in more familiar and informal ("folksier") contexts."
Aearthrise (talk) 20:57, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Louden does provide reasoning why the alternative is incorrect. The expanded quote, from his book "Pennsylvania Dutch: The Story of an American Language" reads
- Louden does not provide any reasoning why the alternative is incorrect, he defers to Yoder as anyone looking up the source can see for her or himself. If you take a close look at the online Oxford Etymological Dictionary (which is an active project, not a finished dictionary) you'll find (in the top left corner a disclaimer stating whether an entry has been revised since 1897 or (as in this case) not. Vlaemink (talk) 20:41, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- At this point I think there can only be two options: either you never understood what is being discussed to begin with or you did but are now purposely creating a smoke screen: nobody is contesting that the word ″Dutch″ at one point had an older, broader meaning in English which, in today's terms, could also include Germans. I wouldn't be able to name a single professional etymological or historical linguistic publication that has ever disputed that. That's not what being discussed here: the issue is not whether ″Dutch″ had additional meanings in the past, but why the ″Pennsylvania Dutch″ are called ″Dutch″ — and that question has at least two possible answers. Yoder in his 1980 article assumes ″Dutch″ is a relic of an earlier meaning surviving in American English, another explanation found in reliable sources is that its an Anglicization of ″deitsch″ or ″deutsch″. That's two theories, both of which should be mentioned in the article. The fact that (etymological) dictionaries prove that ″Dutch″ had a more diverse meaning the past does not mean they validate or prove Yoders hypothesis, it merely means Yoder used a historical dictionary as part of his explanation. Your quote from an 1897 Oxford Etymological dictionary entry (which also defines Pennsylvania Dutch as ″degraded German″) is in the same ballpark: it supports Yoder, but this has no relevance on the fact that other scholars hold a different view and that this view should be included per WP:NPOV. Louder already explicitly mentioned the popularity of the alternative among scholars, proving its relevance and further casting doubt on your continually repeated claim that a ″total consensus″ exists on the matter. Vlaemink (talk) 18:26, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for clarifying that, I misunderstood. English is not my native language and I think I got my idioms mixed up.Vlaemink (talk) 13:33, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- That was meant only as a summary of Aearthrise's argument that I'd loop back to (hence the "put a pin in it"). I'm not saying he's actually right about everything and you're wrong about everything. SnowFire (talk) 13:21, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- @SnowFire: I hope you don't mind me placing this small comment in between your comment, but the sources I've provided on etymology A are valid, reliable, and cited in full on the talk page. Also, Aearthrise is trying his utmost to frame this as ″my theory″, but I've provided sources on both etymologies and have no personal preference; my POV is that both should be mentioned as they both appear in the scholarly field.Vlaemink (talk) 13:15, 21 June 2024 (UTC) (SnowFire again:)
- On Fraktur, I'm sorry, but unless the passage is specifically on fonts or art, it isn't how things are done on Wikipedia, and the other editors were correct. We don't have Kulturkampf in Fraktur despite it being the contemporary font in 1870s Germany. Maybe we need an explicit passage in Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Text formatting forbidding this but I think this just has never come up before. On the very long Miller quote, it's very, very common chest-thumping that thanks to its language only gets seen by its intended community. You could find near-identical statements in Norwegian in 1903 Minnesota, or in Yiddish in 1903 New York, or in Guarani in 1903 Paraguay, talking about how wonderful a local group is and how people look down on them but they're totally wrong and we're actually awesome. It's all standard cheerleading written a million times before, not just the wild claim on agriculture. But this is more a vanilla content dispute. Suffice to say you haven't made the case that this is really a worthy quote to include both the translation AND the original text.
- Your final comment on demanding "proof" ownership is occurring is very strange. What do you think the purpose of this AN thread is? SnowFire (talk) 10:10, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that German nationalism was a just swept comment, and if it needs to be corrected, it should be. The focus of the reversion wasn't about when German nationalism took place.
- As for the quotes I added, I simply added four extra web pages (in total 5 with the Forbes quote already present on the article, and the next four web pages after it) to demonstrate that it was easy to make a Google Search to find the information.
- On the Fraktur point, the literary Fraktur Pennsylvania Dutch should be given consideration due to its history and unique circumstances, and should be treated in the same way other languages are uniquely written for their circumstances (I mentioned Yiddish and Coptic Greek for example). Nevertheless, the whole paragraph on prejudice against the Pennsylvania Dutch is unnecessary on the article and can be removed; the removal of content so far has been about how the language information was presented.
- As for the final point, I asked for proof of ownership, because the only points Vlaemink provided are my passion for the quality of the article, how much of the article i've contributed, and who I am as a person. Aearthrise (talk) 10:22, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- For your Musk quotes: AN is a little tense for a "learning experience", but you still don't seem to be engaging with the problem here. It doesn't have to be a big deal, exactly, but you seem to think that more quotes is better and the other person was very lazy (your words, not mine) for asking the question. Did you read what I wrote above that "you made your case seem worse by linking some truly awful sources like random websites"? If someone asks what the capital of Illinois is and you link a terrible AI-generated source, it makes it look like you don't know what you're talking about, even if the source is accurate. If you couldn't be bothered to critically examine the websites at all and were literally just pasting Google links, maybe don't do that? To back up a little here, your enthusiasm in researching the Pennsylvania Dutch article is a good thing. But learning what sources are reliable and what aren't is a key Wikipedia skill - one that frankly most of the world is bad at (most people believe memes shared on Facebook uncritically). Please click on your own links. Discarding sites like that are the basics of learning how to source. If you agree that those non-Forbes sites weren't useful, then great, we can move on to tougher questions like when to trust old sources from 1878 or whatever. But if you still don't see the problem, then nobody is going to believe on your judgment anywhere else.
- On that note, you didn't answer my C1 question above. If someone asks an in-your-view "easy" question in the future, how would you respond?
- It's moot, but for future reference, you will want to distinguish fonts and language scripts. Yiddish and Coptic are written in non-Latin scripts. Pennsylvania Dutch, like German and English, is written in the Latin script, of which Fraktur is one font. Varying up the script to match a language is fine; varying up fonts within a script is very unusual and not done just because it would have been contemporary without a very good reason.
- On ownership: I think Vlaemink has made his case. I think you have two ways you can defend yourself: A) Actually, everyone else IS really wrong, and you were just performing good stewardship by stopping these wrong editors. But given some of errors so far in your preferred versions, you're not making this approach the easy one. B) You commit to accepting feedback and not reverting and working with others. If you commit to B, and then actually follow through, that'll actually be the happy case - but you have to understand that you will sometimes "lose" and other editors will put in the "wrong" stuff and you'll need to develop a consensus on the talk page otherwise, politely, and without bludgeoning. Are one of these doable? SnowFire (talk) 11:37, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
Adding: Since the first post on the Administrators noticeboard, it has come to light that a very large amount of the references and sources added to Pennsylvania Dutch, almost exclusively by Aearthrise and within the past two years, have very serious issues. It appears many of these references are in fact personal, family or travel websites, self-published (family history/genealogical) books and a very large number of hopelessly outdated publications all over a 100 or even 150, years old, some of them containing false dates of publication which made them appear much more recent than they really were. Some references were simply copy-pasted from other Wikipedias without even changing the language in the citation. This is only based on the first 50 references given out of a total of 130, and it is very probable that the other 80 references will yield similar results. The Pennsylvania Dutch article seems to be in a truly terrible state and will need much improvement. Vlaemink (talk) 21:08, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
- Vlaemink, you claim that there are very serious issues, but show very little to make the claim about severity; your whole argument is about time period and a nitpick of a six sources, but don't point out any flaws of the information they corroborate.
- Dealing with the topic of Pennsylvania Dutch, Pennnsylvania Germans, the height of information about this culture was written between before the American Revolution and World War 2, with the period between World War 1 and World War 2 being heavily obscured and marginalized.
- I've spent a lot of time researching this topic to bring light to facets of this culture, corroborated by many different sources, because prior to my additions, there was almost no history mentioned, only information on the Amish.
- If you see something that you find questionable, then bring it up, and it can be discussed, but without better evidence you're just inventing claims about "very serious issues" based around only 6/130 sources you claim are questionable and fifteen sources from dates before World War 2. I have made a response to your claim on the discussion page.
- This addition is still part of your tactic of character assassination to win your argument on the discussion page, this whole post being because I reverted your deletion of my arguments, which you deleted three times; trying to silence me, you threatened to complain to administration only because I restored my arguments. Aearthrise (talk) 15:09, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- Aearthrise, please try to keep consecutive edits down to two or three, by using the "show preview" button. It's hard enough to read all of these walls of text without watchlists being flooded too. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:25, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- It's time for you (Aearthrise) to stop doubling down, to stop pretending to be a victim, to stop twisting words and to stop defending what cannot be defended and to get back to reality.
- Aearthrise, please try to keep consecutive edits down to two or three, by using the "show preview" button. It's hard enough to read all of these walls of text without watchlists being flooded too. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:25, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- At no point, did I ever threaten you. I asked you to stop making significant changes to your comments well after they'd been responded to and after asking multiple times I told you I would seek assistance from the admins if you continued [61], which you did without any hesitation — so I did what I explicitly told you before.
- You also cannot bluff your way out of the serious sourcing issues described above: I've very clearly stated that of the 130 sources in the article, I've only been able to take a look at the first 50. Discounting sources used multiple times, effectively half of these references were unacceptable by Wikipedia's standards with regard to valid and reliable sources. You're now actively trying to misrepresent the facts by speaking of ″fifteen sources published before World War II″ — which is absurd and extremely misleading, given the fact that these invalid sources include material published over a decade before the start of the American Civil War and leaves out untrustworthy (personal) websites, self-published books, falsified publication dates and copy-pasted references from other Wikipedias!
- This is not the first time your sources have been questioned and found to be totally unsuitable for a serious and reliable encyclopedic article. Take for example your 240 word by Daniel Miller from 1903 — for which you still, despite unanimous pushback from all users involved so far, refused to accept that the Fraktur font is unwanted — which was shown to be both outdated and incredibly biased; or in the words of @SnowFire: ″the good professor was deluded″.
- You need to take a critical introspective look at both your attitude towards sources and other editors. You constantly talk about ″winning″ arguments, unilaterally declare that others ″have failed to convince you″ and are downright rude towards others. The sources you spam every time you are questioned look AI-generated and often have little or nothing to do with the issues being discussed. You say that prior to your additions, there was almost no history mentioned? I'm here to tell you that barely any history is to be preferred over an extensive history section with flawed, biased and hopelessly outdated information.
- There are a great many recent and reliable academic sources on just about every aspect of Pennsylvania Dutch culture, past and present, and these can be found and used by just about any editor. The proposition that you had to use thoroughly antiquated material because nothing of note has been published since 1945 is simply not true and frankly ridiculous. Vlaemink (talk) 20:39, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- You're bouncing around between discussions on this page and the article's page, and this is just another character attack. You're copying this argument from the article's talk page under Talk:Pennsylvania Dutch#Very serious problems with the reliability and validity of the sources used. There, I pointed out a lot of the problems with the routes you're taking to get your way; you don't use evidence, and make statements based on nothing but your word. Aearthrise (talk) 09:27, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Reliable Sources is extremely clear on what constitutes a reliable source and with whom the burden of proof rests and I'm not going to debate these community standards with you. You are not in any position to make any demands: you've added a huge amount of unreliable, questionable and/or outdated sources, in several cases even falsifying their dates of publication or misquoting the source material, and it is highly likely that most if not all will be removed from this article within the next couple of weeks because of this. The quality standards apply to all and to all equally. Vlaemink (talk) 10:55, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- You made a claim on that page of what is "unreliable", and you didn't back up your claims. I addressed your claims, but you ignore them and show that you would rather make a character attack than directly argue with evidence and well-reasoned arguments. Aearthrise (talk) 16:03, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Reliable Sources is extremely clear on what constitutes a reliable source and with whom the burden of proof rests and I'm not going to debate these community standards with you. You are not in any position to make any demands: you've added a huge amount of unreliable, questionable and/or outdated sources, in several cases even falsifying their dates of publication or misquoting the source material, and it is highly likely that most if not all will be removed from this article within the next couple of weeks because of this. The quality standards apply to all and to all equally. Vlaemink (talk) 10:55, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- You're bouncing around between discussions on this page and the article's page, and this is just another character attack. You're copying this argument from the article's talk page under Talk:Pennsylvania Dutch#Very serious problems with the reliability and validity of the sources used. There, I pointed out a lot of the problems with the routes you're taking to get your way; you don't use evidence, and make statements based on nothing but your word. Aearthrise (talk) 09:27, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- There are a great many recent and reliable academic sources on just about every aspect of Pennsylvania Dutch culture, past and present, and these can be found and used by just about any editor. The proposition that you had to use thoroughly antiquated material because nothing of note has been published since 1945 is simply not true and frankly ridiculous. Vlaemink (talk) 20:39, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- Holy wall of text, Batman! Gents. Please endeavor to be more concise. @Vlaemink:, please point out 2-3 sentences and the associated sources you believe to be incorrect, incomplete, misleading, or inappropriate. @Aearthrise: I understand your frustration and find comments here to be less-than-collegial. Let him present his evidence and then we can address them. Buffs (talk) 14:34, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Comment. Wouldn't normally try to backseat a report, but since Vlaemink isn't very experienced with AN and also said English is not their first language, I'll just note that Vlaemink's original post did include lots of diffs showing uncollegial behavior from Aearthrise, since collapsed after told it was way too long. (Then they spent a bunch of time holding their content dispute here anyway...). While since then there's been uncollegial behavior on both sides, the accusation is OWN, and an even casual inspection of the talk page & page history shows that Aearthrise has indeed been defending their "turf", at least in the past (although did say a few good things above on easing off some matters). However they seem to have backed off the article at the moment and are letting Vlaemink make some changes, so maybe the problem is moot? SnowFire (talk) 15:59, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- You're saying "defending their turf" and "backed off on the article", like that was the point of the arguments I had with Vlaemink. This is a complete mischaraterization on your side.
- This whole discussion was about Vlaemink adding content that was untrue (writing High Dutch was a calque invented by Americans of Hochdeutsch, which is false and didn't have any sources), and making an argument had a little weight beyond anecdote equal to one that there is consensus and is backed by an abundance of hard evidence.
- I reverted his edits because he refused to revise them after being addressed why his addition was misleading. Now Vlaemink is trying many different ways to make his earlier work seem legitimate, but it's not true. His newer edits having nothing to do with that argument, so bringing them up here and stating how I'm allowing them is not needed to be said, because it's completely irrelevant. Aearthrise (talk) 16:18, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Comment. Wouldn't normally try to backseat a report, but since Vlaemink isn't very experienced with AN and also said English is not their first language, I'll just note that Vlaemink's original post did include lots of diffs showing uncollegial behavior from Aearthrise, since collapsed after told it was way too long. (Then they spent a bunch of time holding their content dispute here anyway...). While since then there's been uncollegial behavior on both sides, the accusation is OWN, and an even casual inspection of the talk page & page history shows that Aearthrise has indeed been defending their "turf", at least in the past (although did say a few good things above on easing off some matters). However they seem to have backed off the article at the moment and are letting Vlaemink make some changes, so maybe the problem is moot? SnowFire (talk) 15:59, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Outside observer's summary of the WoT and best steps forward. Since I suffered through reading some of the above already, might as well chip in as someone who's never edited the Pennsylvania Dutch article. There's two issues here: a content dispute (that ideally isn't resolved at AN, but it's here, so I guess it might as well be acknowledged) and behavior woes.
- On content: While I can't be sure that Vlaemink's "version" is better, I do think that they are correct that Aearthrise's old version was very... credulous... of old and dated sources, or stuff like genealogy websites. Old sources have their place, but in moderation, and maybe more for a "History of the Pennsylvania Dutch" article when desiring a contemporary report's details. This would normally be No Big Deal, Normal Editing, but Aearthrise initially responded hostiley to attempts to bring in alternate perspectives rather than saying "great, let's expand the sourcing." (And per above, I do not really have confidence in Aearthrise's current ability to pick out what is a good source and what isn't on their own, which is not meant as an insult - this is a fixable problem, just please accept advice with good grace rather than defensiveness). For the record, someone like Aearthrise being willing to dig up old sources like Aearthrise can be a tremendous asset to research on the article, just as long as you work with others to figure out which sources are usable and which aren't, and apply them in WP:DUEWEIGHT. I hope that you two can actually work together in the future.
- On behavior: Vlaemink's depiction of Aearthrise's behavior as being uncollegial and OWN-y are correct per the diffs in his original report. Simply peruse Talk:Pennsylvania_Dutch, or Talk:Pennsylvania_Dutch#Family_of_Elon_Musk? for one obvious example to an IP address - Aearthrise tends to paste some text that supports his position and assumes that denying the printed word is obviously perverse, as if there was one established truth and people don't disagree. Before, he also "defended" his version of the article with salty reverts rather than working collegially toward a better article or as a compromise. (Which would be one thing if Aearthrise was clearly "right" and Vlaemink was a passing crank, but see above on content, I don't believe that was accurate.).
- Suggestion: If Aearthrise is satisfied that they can do better and is willing to commit to working collegially forward, and understands that not every random old source they find is necessarily that usable for Wikipedia, there's nothing that needs to be done other than perhaps a warning. If Aearthrise plans on just restarting the edit war, and plans on snidely replying to newbie questions while being wrong himself, then a page ban from Pennsylvania Dutch & Pennsylvania Dutch language may be in order. But I'm hoping that isn't necessary. SnowFire (talk) 15:59, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- SnowFire, you've said your piece four times already and repeating it doesn't make a more compelling argument. You first tried to make a "gotcha" with my sources by making a whole argument around Elon Musk (I simply added the first five sources that corroborated the same point, to show how easy and quickly the evidence could have been found through a Google search) and you nitpicked one while ignoring the others, and presenting it here like the whole post was wrong saying "given Musk's reality distortion field, it wouldn't shock me if it was at least possible that someone just made it up in the past, so there is an interesting question here". I pointed out the other sources, and you back pedaled.
- You tried making a completely different tangent about the page by starting an argument about German nationalism, and I pointed out that it had nothing to do with the reversion of Vlaemink's edit.
- You say I tend "to paste some text that supports my position"; that's called providing evidence, which is how you prove arguments. Again, those weren't "salty reverts," they were made to stop misleading information from being added. The lack of cooperation is not from my side; if Vlaemink wanted, he could have made well-reasoned arguments and discussed the evidence. Instead, he is going this route of character attack and avoiding addressing points that I made against his argument rather than directly supporting his position. Aearthrise (talk) 16:38, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- I've been trying to avoid the wall of text, but for the record: this was never a "gotcha", Aearthrise. It was a sign of a problem and a genuine attempt to get you to understand that A) Your petty reply to that IP address isn't how we do things on Wikipedia, and B) How to improve in the future. You can choose to take that advice or not. SnowFire (talk) 02:37, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
- I understand your sentiments, but I felt I needed to defend against mischaracterization. The crux of this argument, is that it's important to maintain civility, and I agree. I got frustrated with the situation with Vlaemink, and I took it out on the IP address, and that was wrong.
- Wikipedia should be a place of civility, and one without character attacks. If we can maintain peace, then the experience on the site is more congenial, especially for cooperation. Aearthrise (talk) 06:24, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
- I support SnowFire's assessment of the situation and this response only serves to show Aearthrise's WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour. It is quickly getting to being beyond the point that a warning would be sufficient. Adam Black talk • contribs 04:36, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
- The response was just a defense of some the claims that SnowFire made in his assessment. But beyond that, I agree with the background sentiment. This whole muddy post is the result of bringing an ego into the editing process, and clearly chaos is the result. I don't want chaos, I want peace and harmony, and I want the best articles available, like any good Wikipedian.
- On a side note, Vlaemink has made the revision that I asked for initially, so that point is out the way; this the fruit of cooperation. Aearthrise (talk) 06:37, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
- It seems I spoke too soon I spoke too soon about Vlaemink's revision. Aearthrise (talk) 07:40, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
- I've been trying to avoid the wall of text, but for the record: this was never a "gotcha", Aearthrise. It was a sign of a problem and a genuine attempt to get you to understand that A) Your petty reply to that IP address isn't how we do things on Wikipedia, and B) How to improve in the future. You can choose to take that advice or not. SnowFire (talk) 02:37, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
- Both Vlaemink and Aearthrise have posted far too much here, and Aearthrise seems to have ignored my previous post. Please stop posting and let independent editors decide things. Phil Bridger (talk) 22:34, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- I see your post Phil Bridger; I understand your point of keeping consecutive edits down to two or three, and I understand that it's to help editors read the history of this thread.
- I have made a habit of continuously editing my words for small phrases and grammar mistakes, and I forgot it when writing my response to Vlaemink's most recent charge. I thank you for reminding me, and I ensure it won't happen again. Aearthrise (talk) 23:02, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- I am making one more short comment here so that this thread isn't archived without action. Vlaemink was not very concise in raising the problem, but that doesn't mean it isn't a real problem, IMO. I've posted my own tl;dr analysis above and would encourage at least some admin to wade through the mud to provide some semblance of a way forward for these feuding editors, even the "bad" kind of a-curse-on-both-your-houses. SnowFire (talk) 02:37, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you SnowFire; I don't want to be cursed, and I don't want Vlaemink to be cursed either: we've had a discussion with very heavy emotions, and lot of mudslinging- the only result of that kind of behavior being a big mess.
- A good Wikipedian should be able to edit without bringing in such strong emotion; in my final words, this whole experience has been a lesson on why it's important to manage frustration and anger. Aearthrise (talk) 07:04, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
Unblock request: Willbb234 (2)[edit]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Willbb234 (talk · contribs) A few months back I invited editors to comment on an unblock request that Willbb234 posted on their talk page. My post did not attract the intended audience and the appeal was closed as unsuccessful due to lack of participation. Willbb234 has posted a new request, pasted below:
In December I made a nasty comment and I would like to apologise for said comment and for the distress it caused. I would also like to apologise to those that had to read the comment. I promise that this won't happen again. In my nearly five years of editing this is what I believe to be the first personal attack I have made, and so it is certainly not like me to make such a comment, and I have learned and changed from this block. I would also like to acknowledge the seriousness of my comment and the fact that I have read through the resources given on my talk page and have given thought to what they have said. Passing off sexual harassment as a joke is completely inappropriate.
There was a lack of consensus for unblocking in the community discussion on my talk page, which comes down to the fact that two of the users participating there had previously had disagreements with me. I think a community AN discussion would allow for wider participation hopefully from users who can view the situation with an unbiased perspective. Thank you, Willbb234 23:02, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
Please discuss the new request here. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 12:22, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support unblock This was a first block for WP:NPA and I choose to believe the remorse expressed in the unblock request is genuine. I read through the unblock discussion hosted on Willbb234's talk page. The edit warring concern was a tangent that was not a consideration when making the block and should be dealt with on its own merits if that behavior recurs. Schazjmd (talk) 14:09, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support, per WP:ROPE. I am prepared to give the user some mild benefit of the doubt in the episode that got them blocked, since the editor they were abusive about was trying to put a really bad BLP violation into an article. However, they really need to edit productively from now on, and that means no edit-warring as well. Black Kite (talk) 14:14, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- I'd probably support, except... I feel like I recall this at the time it was happening, and if so it was probably at a noticeboard, but there's no link to that discussion here. A little help, so that everyone doesn't have to do their own detective work? --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:56, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- I'm beginning to think there was no noticeboard discussion; all I can find is the block thread on their talk page, which they annoyingly removed at the time, and which does not include an AN/ANI notice. So I guess I knew about this because their page was already on my watchlist for some reason? I don't think I've ever posted there. Weird. Anyway, at this stage I think we have to either say "support" or "never". The request seems honest, and complete, and more clueful than the first requests that happened at the time. I can't imagine what more we would want. Also, the edit warring is kind of a red herring; that wasn't edit warring, as the BLP exemption applied. So I'd support an unblock, with a short leash. Floquenbeam (talk) 16:07, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1145#Willbb234 for reference. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:11, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you! Floquenbeam (talk) 16:12, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support per Wikipedia:Standard offer. We'll be less forgiving if it happens again. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:42, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose Note: I have had a previous dispute with the user, but those who know my contributions know that I am fervently against restricting editors just because you don't like them, so I do not believe this is a conflict of interest. What it does do is gives me knowledge that their behaviour is routine, this isn't a one-off, and while I would probably support unblocking if it was just the indecent message, I am swayed to oppose because of why the indecent message was sent. Will can say they have never made a personal attack before, but IIRC this is far from true. The indecent comment was Will's response to a basic-level warning, and while more severe than any other of their replies, it's this pattern that concerns me. So I'll repeat my thoughts from their last appeal:
in a regular pattern of behaviour, they are unwilling or unable to actually discuss anything at all. (I.e. they made that comment in response to a warning, rather than discuss the edit.) It's vital to collaborative editing, and I'd like to see an acknowledgement that their tendency to edit war or insult their way out of disputes is inappropriate, and some kind of pledge that they will make an effort to reach out and discuss first in future if they even think about either.
Kingsif (talk) 17:23, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Adding that Will's latest reply (pasted by Bbb23 below) only makes me more concerned: they describe their attitude to being blocked in the past as "having served time", nothing about having learned, and this does not give me confidence that they have responded to the current block with anything but impatience. Kingsif (talk) 20:44, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose Frankly, this is a problem. While the talk page isn't a wall of shame, it's not exactly favorable to make people look through the history to find the actual block, much less that comment. I would expect a bit more of a concrete plan on change before considering supporting the unblock of someone with such a checkered history. EggRoll97 (talk) 19:24, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- For any admins interested, this is the relevant diff I believe. It's been revdelled. Hey man im josh (talk) 19:29, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, that is pretty awful, and I completely agree with BradV's decision to up it to an indef block. I'd add that
In my nearly five years of editing this is what I believe to be the first personal attack I have made
is contradicted by their block log entry from July of last year "3RR is not an entitlement and their last edit included a personal attack." So, I'm not exactly enthused at the idea of unblocking, but we don't really have any other way of testing the sincerity of their commitment not to behave in this manner in the future. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 20:47, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, that is pretty awful, and I completely agree with BradV's decision to up it to an indef block. I'd add that
- For any admins interested, this is the relevant diff I believe. It's been revdelled. Hey man im josh (talk) 19:29, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- I should have provided more background and links when I posted this earlier but I have been under deadline pressure this week and rushed through it. Some of you have found the relevant background anyway. After the incident in December, Willbb234 posted an unblock request in February which I thought was pretty weak for a block for that sort of personal attack, and I told them that when I declined. I also left some links to materials on the damage that sexual "jokes" do to online communities, and suggested they read them. I have no way of knowing if they did and I don't intend to try to test them on it. Maybe they learned from their reading, or maybe they learned that those sorts of comments get you blocked; if either one is true then they probably won't do it again, and that's what we're here for. Then again, they didn't seem to have learned not to edit war after multiple blocks, and the two past discussions that I could find (July 2022, October 2023) look more like a battleground editor defending their turf than one learning how to behave in a collegial environment, and both of those incidents were related to a contentious topic. I'm going to support unblocking, but if this behaviour doesn't improve quickly then we're going to be back here discussing topic bans real soon. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 21:31, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support unblock I think the point has been made sufficiently. * Pppery * it has begun... 21:38, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose. The unblock request, which suggests that this was a one-time out-of-character mistake being held against him by people who "had previously had disagreements with me", does not convince me that any lessons have really been learned regarding the long-term pattern of uncollaborative behavior leading to numerous blocks, ANI threads, etc. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 21:53, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose - (Involved) I'm unconvinced given that even this unblock request is a personal attack on myself and other users that commented at the User talk:Willbb234#Community discussion in April. This sentence in the unblock request
...which comes down to the fact that two of the users participating there had previously had disagreements with me. I think a community AN discussion would allow for wider participation hopefully from users who can view the situation with an unbiased perspective
is literally casting WP:ASPERSIONS of bias without evidence of such, which falls afoul of NPA. If they truly had learnt not to attack others, then this backhanded comment would not have been necessary. Raladic (talk) 22:39, 21 June 2024 (UTC) - Oppose looking at their block log they seem to have a problem with edit warring and incivility that they seem to be unable to change despite the blocks. So, I believe that they are unlikely to change despite them saying otherwise. Lightoil (talk) 04:04, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose because I cannot square Willbb234's statement that
In my nearly five years of editing this is what I believe to be the first personal attack I have made
with the numerous other personal attacks, not to mention incivil and battleground conduct, that they have been previously warned about, eg [62], [63], [64], [65], etc. If the problem is not even recognized and acknowledged I don't see how the editor can prevent its recurrence. Abecedare (talk) 05:06, 22 June 2024 (UTC)- (copied from Willbb234's Talk page at their request.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:57, 22 June 2024 (UTC)) I think that it is unfair to say that I have made "numerous other personal attacks" in the last five years without evidencing this. As I say "In my nearly five years of editing this is what I believe to be the first personal attack I have made" and I still stand by this statement. I have been uncivil in the past, and that is something I have 'served my time' for and I have deliberately made an effort to be more collaborative and polite as of late (the four links that you give are all from over a year ago). Regards, Willbb234 09:57, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose (note: I've been somewhat involved with them). Homophobic slurs don't fly with me (diff, for admins only), experienced user or not. LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 12:30, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose per Extraordinary Writ and Abecedare. I'm also suprised that editors find the latest unblock request convincing. Just because it's better than the last one, the aggression still leaks through.--Bbb23 (talk) 13:53, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose - the most recent reply copied over by Bbb23 can most charitably be understood as lacking an understanding of what is considered to be a personal attack. Further, the fact that they're from "over a year ago" is undermined by the fact Willbb23 has been sitting out a block for all but May-December of the past year, a period which culminated in the PA that led to the current block. signed, Rosguill talk 15:09, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support per WP:ROPE Mr vili talk 18:30, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
- Note: Mr. Vili is now indef blocked. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 19:22, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
NFL player infobox[edit]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I've noticed when editing NFL player biographies an error message comes up and says that template data is missing and parameters have been auto-generated. You can no longer add the link for NFL.com player stats. I was just wondering if there is a possible solution for this. Hunterb212 (talk) 05:10, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Hunterb212: A better place to ask about {{Infobox NFL biography}} would be at its talk page or WP:HELPDESK. If no help there, use WP:VPT. It would be very desirable to give a link to an example article and a precise description of the problem (what you did, what you expected, what happened). Johnuniq (talk) 07:48, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
- This is not the place for this discussion. With that said, the parameter was removed based on consensus and then a bot removed it from all relevant info boxes. Hey man im josh (talk) 11:17, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Block review User:Jamiesonandy[edit]
Jamiesonandy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Blocking admin: Orangemike (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
The blocked user is clearly an elderly person who misunderstands what Wikipedia is. It was explained to him at the help desk, and he stopped editing. Ten hours later, Mike indef blocked him. I feel like this is far from the first time I have seen Mike come late to a situation and substitute his own judgement for that of others who already adressed the situation. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 21:36, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- Egregiously bad block What the hell? Not a single warning on the user's talk page, not a note from the admin prior to jumping to a block, and an indef block at that? For a newbie who seems confused and needs some direction? Have we forgotten WP:BITE and WP:BLOCKP? I daresay I hope Orangemike is able to defend their actions, because I'm not seeing any reason they should be blocked indefinitely for a few questions on the Teahouse and Help Desk (two places designed for people to ask for..wait for it...help!). Not to mention, Orangemike mentions the editor being "belligerent" in the block reason, which I see absolutely zero evidence of, and the rest of their block reason of WP:NOTHERE seems to be a very unsubstantiated position to take. EggRoll97 (talk) 22:39, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- The belligerency was when he demanded, I asked a question; where is your answer? The guy was just not getting it, was using both the Teahouse and Help Desk as general information sources for UK banking questions, and clearly was not going to accept that this was not the place to seek help on this question. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orangemike (talk • contribs)
- It wasn't just one out of place question. It was several on both the Teahouse and the Help Desk, and it didn't seem like the user was ready to give up asking. RudolfRed (talk) 23:27, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- Definitely not a good block. I've taken a look at a number of Orangemike's NOTHERE blocks (I didn't look at others), and there were a number of very bad blocks:
- Special:Contributions/Studio_Atinati, one-edit no warning block
- Special:Contributions/Caroline.j.ashleyy, another one-edit no warning block
- Special:Contributions/Mrpoopbenji, user who stopped editing after warning, blocked more than a day later
- Special:Contributions/Wilburthewigga, no warnings whatsoever; this is not a good deletion either
- Nearly half of the blocks I looked at were like this. Orangemike really needs to stop doing these no-to-little-warning blocks. —Ingenuity (t • c) 23:52, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- If my colleagues really feel that I'm being quick on the trigger, I will accept your collective judgement and take my trouting like a mensch; but I genuinely doubt that any one of these accounts had any intention of contributing to our project in the way that somebody like Sideways [nee Beeble] does every day. Two spamming accounts with spammy usernames, one poop joke, one racial epithet username, and our confused British gentleman who thinks we can put him in contact with a bank account dead for over half a century...... --Orange Mike | Talk 00:37, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- I haven't looked into any of your blocks and so have no opinion whether or not you have acted appropriately, but I would say that the fact that you
genuinely doubt that any one of these accounts had any intention of contributing to our project
does not override Wikipedia policy, specifically the policy on blocking. The intention behind Wikipedia was to create an encyclopaedia that anyone can edit. Policies which temporarily (even indefinite blocks shouldn't be considered permanent) remove an individual's ability to contribute to the project exist only to limit damage and disruption to the project and should generally be considered a last resort, not the first tool you pull out. I am not and have never been an administrator on this or any other Wikimedia project, but I have been an administrator or bureaucrat on multiple MediaWiki installations through my work and can tell you from experience that biting the newcomers in such a way may temporarily put a stop to vandalism or disruption but long-term only harms the project. Adam Black talk • contribs 02:08, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- I haven't looked into any of your blocks and so have no opinion whether or not you have acted appropriately, but I would say that the fact that you
- If my colleagues really feel that I'm being quick on the trigger, I will accept your collective judgement and take my trouting like a mensch; but I genuinely doubt that any one of these accounts had any intention of contributing to our project in the way that somebody like Sideways [nee Beeble] does every day. Two spamming accounts with spammy usernames, one poop joke, one racial epithet username, and our confused British gentleman who thinks we can put him in contact with a bank account dead for over half a century...... --Orange Mike | Talk 00:37, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- None of these 4 blocks make any sense, and while I think Mike's explanations are genuine, this is a base breach of the blocking policy, and at least a couple of those user's blocks are concerning. The first, for User:Studio Atinati, based on the contributions looks like they need to be redirected to a different language content project (Google tells me it's Georgian?). The second user, User:Caroline.j.ashleyy, just needs an extra dose of the introduction to Wikipedia, not a block for heaven's sake. The third user, User:Mrpoopbenji, based on their contributions just seems like they need some help getting started, something the Growth Tools like mentorship are supposed to help with. Finally, the fourth user, User:Wilburthewigga, is the only one I'll say should probably be blocked, but not for WP:NOTHERE. If anything they should have been blocked for a UPOL violation, but not for their contributions or whether they are HERE or not. To be quite honest though, their edits are just to their user page then a question to their mentor. Of those edits to their userpage, they didn't seem to have any malicious intent either. In addition, they appear to have responded to the block notice, stating they would
learn from it
, which isn't typically a trait associated with blocks for WP:NOTHERE. On just a closing note as well, the deletion, unless something else had been added that was horridly obscene other than the page creation with "Woo!", I would say that's a violation of WP:DELTALK and the deletion policy in general. Based on the API result here, there doesn't appear to be any other edits to the page, though. Just out of curiosity, Ingenuity, would you (or of course any other administrator) be able to confirm if there's still a deleted revision on User talk:Wilburthewigga? If there is, I wonder if it would be possible to restore that revision, as it doesn't appear to be a proper use of the deletion tool. EggRoll97 (talk) 01:12, 16 June 2024 (UTC)- I remember encountering Mrpoopbenji (talk · contribs) through WP:UAA, and discovered that all of their edits were created by a large language model. Ther sandbox was deleted for this reason. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 17:55, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- Someone with a username that's slang for "white nigger" needs only a swift kick in the ass out the door. I'd have blocked on sight as well. As to the others: one is an obvious username violation, with another the text being in Georgian is the least of the problems given it was an obvious attempt to hijack an article with blatant spam about an entirely unrelated subject, and the last was as flagrant a case of noble cause syndrome as it gets. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 06:10, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
- Just wanted to point out that the blocked editor did not stop editing once it was pointed out (not only on May 14th, which they may have not seen, but also on Jun 14th at 18:34, again at 18:34, at 18:35, and at at 18:44) that wikipedia, including the Help desk and Teahouse, was not an appropriate place for their query. Rather, 20 minutes after that last response, the editor reposted the question asking for legal/financial advice on the userpage. Secondly, while the editor said that they had "contributed to Wikipedia for a number of years" at least this account seemed to be dedicated to a single purpose that was not that of building an encyclopedia. Finally, as Girth Summit eloquently explained on this page a short while back, albeit in a different context, one motivation for applying an indef block is to get assurance from the blocked editor that the problematic behavior will not be repeated.
- Hence, while I understand that the Jamiesonandy block was still a judgement call, and that it is natural to feel sympathy for a senior citizen in distress, I can also see Orangemike's thinking in applying the NOTHERE block. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 01:39, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- Comment I've noticed for years that Orangemike is quick to block, often without any talk page warnings but I generally have trusted their judgment. I'd ask them to ease up on the trigger finger and try communicating with an editor before laying down the ban hammer first. Liz Read! Talk! 03:34, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- Generally speaking, in my view, a NOTHERE indef block is admissible (although not necessary) if none of the user's edits indicate an ability or intent to improve our articles. This seems to be the case here. It's then up to the user to convince us, in an unblock request, that they are indeed able and willing to edit constructively. Sandstein 08:27, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- A quick show of hands: y'all do realize that the "reason" you fill in at Special:Block isn't just for the entry in the block log, but is shown to the user every time they try to edit, yes? Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 22:22, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- The thing here for me is that the Teahouse and the Help Desk are exactly where we want users to go when they are lost or confused as to the purpose of Wikipedia. I don't think anyone is defending this users actual edits, but he hadn't posted anything in many hours and the situation seemed to have settled itself when Mike just indef blocked out of nowhere. Mike, like myself, has contributed for many years at WP:UAA Personally, I don't even think most of the thousands of accounts I've blocked at UAA were here in bad faith, they, like this person, just didn't get it and tried to use Wikipedia in ways it isn't intended to be used. So, they use an WP:ORGNAME and write upa draft article on said organization, and the usual response is that we delete the draft and soft block the user, explicitly allowing them to just start a new account and try to edit within the rules. Looking at some of Mike's blocks, he treats "being lost and confused on help forums" the same way most admins treat "actively disrupting article space." I just don't think being clueless in WP space is what NOTHERE hard indef blocks are for, it is for people who come here to push the content to suit their own needs, not for people who ask deeply misguided questions. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 18:31, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
- I'd add that if you look at the language at WP:NOTHERE there's a lot of wording like "long-term history...Extreme lack of interest in working constructively...Major conflicts of attitude, concerning Wikipedia-related activity..." and so on. It doesn't say anything aboout "asks clueless questions at help forums, because help forums are there, at least in part, to help clueless users get some clue. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 20:57, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
- I get that in general, but this particular account was going well beyond that. I count 4 separate instances of being told, in various ways, that Wikipedia is not a forum for handling personal bank squabbles that date back to something from 1950s British probate court (!); to respond to said warnings with this tells me that, in a very literal sense, this user was not here to build an encyclopedia. I'm American and even I could point out that a solicitor, not an online community devoted to building an encyclopedia, would be who to ask these questions. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 06:35, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
- I'd add that if you look at the language at WP:NOTHERE there's a lot of wording like "long-term history...Extreme lack of interest in working constructively...Major conflicts of attitude, concerning Wikipedia-related activity..." and so on. It doesn't say anything aboout "asks clueless questions at help forums, because help forums are there, at least in part, to help clueless users get some clue. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 20:57, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
- I've brought this back from the archive because this is still relevant. EggRoll97 (talk) 03:33, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- Should've let it stay archived. I get the sense of injustice, but I don't see anything useful this user can contribute to the encyclopedia. And that's the benchmark - the project is what's important. I'm not going to undo the block, myself, and I'm not sure any other admin would, either. This isn't an endorsement of the block, I probably wouldn't have made it myself, but I can't see how unblocking makes the project better.--v/r - TP 14:44, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- I think we all agree here that although Orangemike is too quick to block users, all of the blocks in question except Wilburthewigga were sound. It is evident that all of the users except Mrpoopbenji and Wilburthewigga were WP:NOTHERE, and Mrpoopbenji was a good block because they misused a large language model.
- As for Wilburthewigga, they were unambiguously asking for help because they were new to the project, and the deletions of the userpage and user talk were clearly wrong, but they should have been soft-blocked for an offensive username (the word wigga). –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 20:19, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- The closest analog I could think of is a racist username [partial redaction] from 2012, who received the soft usernameblock notice because despite the offensive username, none of their edits were obviously unconstructive (though they were preemptively reverted by The Mark of the Beast (talk · contribs)). –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 20:28, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- Or you could have just held that thought in your head and not reposted racist hate speech here. That would be fine, too. Indignant Flamingo (talk) 03:11, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- WP:NOTCENSORED, you might not like it but Wikipedia is not censored and sometimes we have to discuss unpleasant speech in order to effectively maintain the project. Adam Black talk • contribs 11:19, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- This sort of abstract defense is incredibly stupid: if you think the inclusion here can be defended on its own merits (I am skeptical but it seems like a minor point) then do so, otherwise why are you wasting the time of everyone who reads your comment? 100.36.106.199 (talk) 16:04, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- When we have to put up with people making unpleasant, unhelpful comments like yours (
incredibly stupid
andwasting the time of everyone who reads your comment
specifically were unnecessary) in all corners of the encyclopedia, I think it's perfectly acceptable to use a blocked username as an example of how an editor thinks blocks of problematic usernames could or should be done. Adam Black talk • contribs 16:11, 24 June 2024 (UTC)- Yes, the example is a fine example; and anyone who thought about it for 2 seconds would come up with ways that use it effectively as an example without needing to include the actual offensive username here. What is unpleasant and unhelpful is dropping of WP:NOTCENSORED without any evidence of having thought about how it applies to the situation under consideration. (Both the policy and the guideline WP:Offensive material recommended by it are thoughtful and are very clear about the context-dependent nature of their application.) 100.36.106.199 (talk) 21:10, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- When we have to put up with people making unpleasant, unhelpful comments like yours (
- This sort of abstract defense is incredibly stupid: if you think the inclusion here can be defended on its own merits (I am skeptical but it seems like a minor point) then do so, otherwise why are you wasting the time of everyone who reads your comment? 100.36.106.199 (talk) 16:04, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- WP:NOTCENSORED, you might not like it but Wikipedia is not censored and sometimes we have to discuss unpleasant speech in order to effectively maintain the project. Adam Black talk • contribs 11:19, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Or you could have just held that thought in your head and not reposted racist hate speech here. That would be fine, too. Indignant Flamingo (talk) 03:11, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- The closest analog I could think of is a racist username [partial redaction] from 2012, who received the soft usernameblock notice because despite the offensive username, none of their edits were obviously unconstructive (though they were preemptively reverted by The Mark of the Beast (talk · contribs)). –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 20:28, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Orangemike:, you say you'll "take the trout like a mensch" if the community disagrees, so while I don't think there's agreement among commenters on all 5 of the blocks discussed here, there does seem to be an agreement that your blocks, in general, are a little too quick. So if you could dial it back, like, 10-15%, I think some of us will be satisfied, and others will at least be happier. In this particular case, I think the block was good if we're confident this is a troll of some kind, and too aggressive if we think it really is a semi-confused person. It seems too quick to just assume the former. Do you mind if I unblock, as a gesture more than anything else (there's a 90% chance it's too late anyway), and as a way to shut down this zombie thread? I'll keep an eye on their talk page and edits. It would make me feel better. --Floquenbeam (talk) 12:49, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- User:Jamiesonandy was totally astray, like an angry ratespayer demanding a VAT refund from a Beefeater at the Tower; but I certainly wouldn't object to an unblock, especially if you attempt to get clear to the guy that he's not just in the wrong pew or the wrong queue, but in the wrong universe. --Orange Mike | Talk 20:20, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Great, thanks, I've done so. We'll see what happens. By commenting and then unblocking here, I probably shouldn't close this thread myself, but IMHO it's ripe for closure. Floquenbeam (talk) 21:12, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- User:Jamiesonandy was totally astray, like an angry ratespayer demanding a VAT refund from a Beefeater at the Tower; but I certainly wouldn't object to an unblock, especially if you attempt to get clear to the guy that he's not just in the wrong pew or the wrong queue, but in the wrong universe. --Orange Mike | Talk 20:20, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
Unban request from user Vpha[edit]
User:Vpha has posted the following unban request to their talk page:
Dear to whom it may concern,
I have avoided editing Wikipedia for at least 6 months now. I will only use this account and not other accounts or IP addresses from now on. I understand that damage that sockpuppetry may incur and will not participate in it again. Please consider unbanning me.
I also request this to be reposted to the appropriate discussion board as per WP:UNBAN
Kind regards,
Largoplazo (talk) 12:41, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose Insufficient, and as just a side note, @Largoplazo:, I don't think you should've closed the unblock request. Seems like more of an admin task to actually close the unblock request, regardless of whether you brought it here (given that the template states an administrator has declined it in the template). EggRoll97 (talk) 13:10, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- I've undone Largoplazo's edits at the user's Talk page.--Bbb23 (talk) 13:39, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- I apologize for anything (which might have been all of it) that I did that was out of order. It hit me right after I finished up that it might have been improper and I immediately acknowledged as much on the user's talk page. Largoplazo (talk) 20:02, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- Yamla, you said the user was banned? Drmies (talk) 15:35, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- I've undone Largoplazo's edits at the user's Talk page.--Bbb23 (talk) 13:39, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose: This editor should not be unblocked on multiple levels:
- Vpha's original block was for
Disruptive editing: Aggressive nationalistic POV pushing
after an ANI discussion started by Qiushufang. This unblock request does not address anything from that. - Vpha then extensively used sockpuppets and dynamic IPs (SPI, partial list of IP block evasion), which were so disruptive that this unblock request doesn't even begin to recognize the incredible steps they took to avoid accountability.
- Some of the socks were blocked outright on their own for disruptive editing, personal attacks, and sockpuppetry before being connected to Vpha (e.g. Introductionneeded).
- It's doubtful that Vpha has stopped edited for the last 6 months. Take this IP randomly commenting on the SPI 2 months ago, from a similar range to previous IPs used by Vpha for block evasion.
- WP:NOTHERE and not able to collaborate, as proudly proclaimed on their user page here:
- I am nearly always right [...]
- The reason why you are wrong, is because you probably don't know how to keep good boundaries.
- I HAVE BEEN HARRASSED BY COUNTLESS WIKIPEDIA EDITORS. They have been mostly Chinese, Taiwanese, or Cantonese, or something along those lines. They're all bad people.
- Cambodians or Chinese Cambodians or Chinese in general have been no good either. Useless. Mao and Pol Pot were USELESS.
- Glory to Vietnam!
- Vpha's original block was for
- Consider this a strong no. I don't see any indication that this editor, who tendentiously edited on a nationalistic basis and used dozens of socks and IPs to further that goal over 4 years, can now be a trust-worthy and collaborative member of the Wikipedia community. — MarkH21talk 18:09, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- It's also worth noting that Vpha has a history of making "deeply sorry" unblock requests while actively editing under socks and IPs, as recently as late 2023. — MarkH21talk 18:52, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose - Presuming a checkuser will be run to confirm that Vpha actually hasn't edited for 6mo, the blatant nationalism above is a red flag. Even if they haven't been socking, Wikipedia does not need more aggressively partisan nationalists. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v threads critiques 18:59, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose - Per above reasons. Qiushufang (talk) 21:06, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose As Jéské Couriano wrote so accurately,
Wikipedia does not need more aggressively partisan nationalists
, especially those who openly express hatred toward other nationalities. Cullen328 (talk) 21:08, 23 June 2024 (UTC) - Oppose. I noted a few days ago that I found no CU evidence of recent block evasion. However, I'm voting oppose because this request doesn't even try to address the problems that lead to the original block. --Yamla (talk) 11:37, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
Request admin attention to personal attack[edit]
Please see this. As I placed the block, I should not take any further action. Donald Albury 17:28, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- Added TPA to the rangeblock. Black Kite (talk) 17:47, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you. They had already left me a message at User talk:172.59.209.22 before you did that. I also blocked 174.206.160.0/20, as they had edited from both ranges in the last 2 or 3 weeks (some of the addresses they used in the second range had already been blocked). They may find another address outside those ranges, but I was trying to keep the blocks as limited as possible. Donald Albury 18:09, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
Commons help[edit]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hello,
I need help on Commons, I was just blocked as a bad faith "cool-off" punitive action. The blocking admin claims I was edit warring and making personal attacks, neither of which are true. When I called out their bad faith on my talk page, I was then blocked from editing it also without appropriate warnings. I was already ignored for 4 months by Commons Oversight (regarding a different subject), so I know that is a useless action, who else can I reach out to about this? - Adolphus79 (talk) 17:45, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- Unfortunately there is nothing we can do here. Also, WP:INVOLVED blocks like that one are fairly standard for Commons, which is why personally I have little to do with it. Black Kite (talk) 17:53, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- I have no intention of going back over there after what I have just experienced. No one seems to care what the policies are, or what the instructions at the top of a page say, everything I saw was done purely on personal opinion or knee-jerk reactions. - Adolphus79 (talk) 18:01, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
iOS app edit[edit]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I contribute from my iPhone, but why doesn't it say "iOS app edit" in the tag section? What should I do please help me. @Drmies. 149.0.155.134 (talk) 10:43, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Drmies, @Drmies, @Drmies. 149.0.155.134 (talk) 10:43, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Pls help @Drmies. 149.0.155.134 (talk) 10:45, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
Why doesn't anyone help me? 149.0.155.134 (talk) 10:53, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- A large percentage of Wikipedians are inactive at this time given timezones in the US and Western Europe where many Wikipedians are based. But in any case you should never expect volunteers to reply in such a short time, especially when the query is not urgent. Also please use the WP:Teahouse or WP:Help Desk for questions like this in the future. But to answer your question, the iOS app tag will only be applied when you edit from the iOS app. In other words, the app you download from the iOS app store. If you edit from a browser and use the en.m.wikipedia.org site, your edits will be tagged with the "Mobile web edit" as did happen with your edits. If you edit with the normal en.wikipedia.org site, it is likely there will be no indication in the public tags that you are editing from a mobile device. I have never used the iOS device myself but I know some people finding it annoying to use for editing, especially when editing from an IP given WP:THEYCANTHEARYOU notification limitations. Nil Einne (talk) 12:26, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- For further information — Drmies' userpage says he lives in Alabama, where it was 5:43 AM when you left your first message. Nyttend (talk) 12:48, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
Thank you for your answer, but I don't fully understand it. The same thing happens again when I make changes via Safari. How does @Drmies do this? Can you please reply? 31.155.104.246 (talk) 13:09, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Drmies, You see my message but you don't reply. 31.155.104.246 (talk) 13:13, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Filter please[edit]
This has been going on for days now. Drmies (talk) 12:28, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Should probably post this at Wikipedia:Edit filter/Requested, or to the edit filter managers mailing list if you want to keep some details private. –Novem Linguae (talk) 23:31, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Ah. Someone already copied it over for you at Wikipedia:Edit filter/Requested#User:Drmies wants a filter. –Novem Linguae (talk) 23:34, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
Administrators by time zone[edit]
Years ago, I remember seeing a page in which administrators could list their time zones and typical activity times; the goal was helping people who needed rapid administrative attention, by letting them find a list of admins who were generally available "right now". Can anyone remember what this page is? I assume I've been removed from it, since I was inactive for a couple of years. Nyttend (talk) 12:50, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Here: Wikipedia:List of administrators/Timezones DanCherek (talk) 12:52, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- That page is a good idea, and certainly can't hurt, but it seems *much* more useful to look at recent changes and see what admins have edited in the last few minutes. Floquenbeam (talk) 13:03, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Maybe it would be worth requesting a filter for recent changes to highlight administrators. At the moment, you can filter for unregistered, registered, newcomers (not autoconfirmed), learners (autoconfirmed) and experienced (extended confirmed) users. Adding a filter for administrators would I'm sure be helpful. Adam Black talk • contribs 15:52, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- There's a link at the top of this page. Jake Wartenberg (talk) 15:55, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- LOL. Well that certainly solves everyone's problem. The only question is how better (or if it's possible) to publicize it. I certainly had no idea it was there. Floquenbeam (talk) 15:58, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- I don't wanna be filtered; I like being dirty.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:02, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- There's a link at the top of this page. Jake Wartenberg (talk) 15:55, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Maybe it would be worth requesting a filter for recent changes to highlight administrators. At the moment, you can filter for unregistered, registered, newcomers (not autoconfirmed), learners (autoconfirmed) and experienced (extended confirmed) users. Adding a filter for administrators would I'm sure be helpful. Adam Black talk • contribs 15:52, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- That page is a good idea, and certainly can't hurt, but it seems *much* more useful to look at recent changes and see what admins have edited in the last few minutes. Floquenbeam (talk) 13:03, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
DanCherek, thank you, but this actually isn't the correct page; it has only a few names, and the page in my mind had big coloured boxes in a table. This one also has very few edits in its history, all of which postdate the time period I'm thinking of (late last decade), so I'm definitely thinking of another page. Nyttend (talk) 18:44, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- I suspect you're thinking of the now inactive and historical Wikipedia:Highly_Active_Users, which Jake's link references. Floquenbeam (talk) 18:50, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Floquenbeam, yes that's it. Thank you! I had no idea that it was historical-only. Nyttend (talk) 11:53, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Nyttend, there is a Toolforge page that lists users who have recently edited where you can choose to filter for admins, crats, checkusers, or oversighters. Giraffer (talk) 11:47, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
Help creating a redirect[edit]
Hello, I hit a title blacklist trying to create Muñoa’s Pampas cat as "REDIRECT [[Pampas cat#Taxonomy]] {{R to section}}". I can't figure out why it is blacklisted, there is nothing in the deletion log. If there is no significant issue, perhaps the redirect could be created, or the blacklist could be removed to allow for a WP:REDLINK page creation prompt? (Seems a viable topic.) Best, CMD (talk) 04:54, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- It's because because the title has
’instead of'. The contents of MediaWiki:Titleblacklist-custom-curly-quote should have been shown to you, explaining this, when you tried to create it; did it not? —Cryptic 05:14, 25 June 2024 (UTC)- It does not. Here is the text I see when I click that red link:
Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name. Please search for Muñoa’s Pampas cat in Wikipedia to check for alternative titles or spellings.
This page is on the title blacklist, so only administrators, template editors, and page movers can create it.
Search for "Muñoa’s Pampas cat" in existing articles.
Look for pages within Wikipedia that link to this title.
Other reasons this message may be displayed:
If a page was recently created here, it may not be visible yet because of a delay in updating the database; wait a few minutes or try the purge function.
Titles on Wikipedia are case sensitive except for the first character; please check alternative capitalizations and consider adding a redirect here to the correct title.
If the page has been deleted, check the deletion log, and see Why was the page I created deleted?- I was also getting the same message with Muñoa's Pampas cat, but I refreshed that a couple of times and managed to get it to work. CMD (talk) 05:24, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- Are you perchance editing on mobile? It works properly for me while logged out (at Draft:Muñoa’s Pampas cat, because as an IP I can't create in mainspace anyway) on desktop, but mobile view seems to throw away the blacklist custom message. —Cryptic 05:52, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- Afraid not, windows 11. Checking both the original redlink and that draft redlink in an incognito window on Chrome, as well as unlogged-in instances of Firefox and Edge yield the same text I'm afraid. CMD (talk) 06:05, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, I click on that red link and get this message in pink:
- "Warning: This page can only be created and/or edited by administrators, template editors, and page movers because it matches an entry on the local or global title blacklist:
- .*’.* <errmsg=titleblacklist-custom-curly-quote> # right single quotation mark with custom error message"
- So, does that mean that an admin or page mover can create this page? As an admin, I've never been allowed to override a blacklisted title or weblink (which can happen when fixing old archive talk pages) so I was suprised to see this message implying that we could. Liz Read! Talk! 18:34, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:User access levels#tboverride says that the right to override the title blacklist is granted to admins and bureaucrats and additionally to template editors, page movers and interface editors. Looking at your last edit filter log, you do indeed have that right. Per this old AN comment you get that warning because you have the override right.
- Perhaps one of you user scripts changes the default behaviour? – 2804:F1...35:42BC (talk) 20:44, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- I've opened this at Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Not getting the curly apostrophe message at page creation as it is apparently more technical than administrative. Thanks all, CMD (talk) 11:29, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, I click on that red link and get this message in pink:
- Afraid not, windows 11. Checking both the original redlink and that draft redlink in an incognito window on Chrome, as well as unlogged-in instances of Firefox and Edge yield the same text I'm afraid. CMD (talk) 06:05, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- Are you perchance editing on mobile? It works properly for me while logged out (at Draft:Muñoa’s Pampas cat, because as an IP I can't create in mainspace anyway) on desktop, but mobile view seems to throw away the blacklist custom message. —Cryptic 05:52, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
Request[edit]
Hello everyone, could someone please help me out by transferring the rollback and AWB rights from my main account, User:DreamRimmer, to my alt account, User:DreamRimmer Alt? Also, I'd appreciate it if you could remove PCR from my main account, as I haven't used it much and don't need it anymore. I wanted to submit these requests through WP:PERM, but since there's no venue for permission removal, I'm posting them here instead. I'll be using AWB and handling anti-vandalism work from my alt account, so these permissions are no longer necessary on my main one. Thanks a lot! – DreamRimmer (talk) 12:04, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- @DreamRimmer: Can you make an edit from DreamRimmer Alt to confirm that you actually are in control of that account please? I have removed PCR and rollbacker so far. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 12:17, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- I am confirming this request. Thanks for your valuable time. DreamRimmer Alt (talk) 12:19, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
Done —Ingenuity (t • c) 12:21, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks! – DreamRimmer (talk) 12:25, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
Remove pv-magazine from spam-blacklist[edit]
This source has been blacklisted since 2011 MediaWiki talk:Spam-blacklist/archives/June 2024#pv-magazine.com. Several requests have been made to allow it but no action has been taken. Could an admin please review the request? Thanks! {{u|Gtoffoletto}} talk 18:18, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- It seems you restored the request from the archive... back into the archive - I don't think that's what you meant to do. – 2804:F1...35:42BC (talk) 21:07, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks. Let's try this... one... more... time... can someone please fix this? MediaWiki talk:Spam-blacklist#pv-magazine.com {{u|Gtoffoletto}} talk 15:46, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
- It was added by Hu12 on 31 March 2011 as a result of this complaint. The reasoning was that editors -- possibly socks or someone with COI -- were adding cites. That is, it wasn't about whether the publication was spam, it was whether spammers publicized it in Wikipedia. I've seen (and made) fruitless complaints about similar situations to the blacklist/whitelist folks and believe the proper solution would be to allow only confirmed users to add such cites, though I don't know if that's technically possible. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 16:48, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
- It was a long way back. So I think it is safe at this point to remove it and if the problem resumes the spam list is just one click away. The site is a legitimate and reliable source. I guess at the time someone from pv-magazine thought they had a "great idea to grow the site quickly" {{u|Gtoffoletto}} talk 18:30, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
Unexplained decline of CSD on several TimedText pages[edit]
I nominated several TimedText pages for speedy deletion per G8 because they were associated with deleted files, but all but one were declined by the same user without any explanation. The admin who declined, Liz (talk · contribs · logs), didn't respond when I asked on their talk page.
- TimedText:Heaven circa 2016.ogg.en.srt
- TimedText:Pe-al nostru steag e scris Unire.ogg.ro.srt
- TimedText:Pambansang Martsa ng PDP–Laban.ogg.tl.srt
- TimedText:My Favourite Mistake (Sheryl Crow song - sample).ogg.en.srt
- TimedText:Avicii - Wake Me Up.ogg.en.srt
- TimedText:Avicii - Wake Me Up.ogg.vi.srt
- TimedText:Test.mp3.en.srt (also per G2)
- TimedText:Cass Elliot - Dream a Little Dream of Me.ogg.en.srt
- TimedText:Pambansang Martsa ng PDP-Laban.ogg.tl.srt
They also declined an attempted CSD on TimedText:File:Title_(Meghan_Trainor_song_-_sample).ogg.en.srt per R3 and G6, after I moved that TimedText page to the correct location. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 00:45, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
- These aren't the typical pages we see tagged for CSD G8 which are orphaned talk pages. I haven't encountered many "Timed Text" pages except for some vandals who create Timed Text talk pages which are deleted as CSD G8. I'm sorry that I haven't been prompt in responding to User talk page messages lately but for the past two months I've been taking care of a relative on hospice care who died over the weekend and honestly, sometimes the last thing I want to do when I come to Wikipedia is respond to talk page complaints. That's my failing, I'll admit, I need to improve. I'm sorry that you felt the need to come to a noticeboard about this, if I had responded in a timely manner, I probably would have suggested that you retag them and I'd let another admin who is more familiar with Timed Text pages deal with them. They are not a namespace we encounter much patrolling CSD categories so I probably should have just left them for someone else to deal with instead of untagging them. Liz Read! Talk! 06:36, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
- Deleted all of them. Take care of yourself, Liz. Floquenbeam (talk) 12:28, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
Potional Canvasing on Talk Page for San Bernardino County, California[edit]
A Twitter user has posted [66] about Talk:San Bernardino County, California#Election results gone. and seems to have a lot of people saying they are going to participate in the discussion. Just wanted to give a heads up. LakesideMinersCome Talk To Me! 19:01, 26 June 2024 (UTC)