Talk:Lemmings (video game)

This is a computer game

Not a videogame. Computers are not video consoles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.253.186.62 (talk) 07:35, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

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RTS??? Sounds like theorizing based on cherrypicking

So, the last paragraph of the article is this:

"Lemmings has also been called a predecessor of the modern real-time strategy (RTS) video game genre. A 1991 Amiga Power article claimed that Lemmings "was the first major game to introduce the 'indirect-control' concept," an element that is now common in many RTS games.[73] Blizzard Entertainment developer Bob Fitch said that part of the inspiration for the first Warcraft game, Warcraft: Orcs & Humans, was based on developing a competitive multiplayer RTS that combined elements of The Lost Vikings (which he had worked on) and Lemmings; Fitch said "We just went, 'Oh it's so cool when you see lots of Lemmings all over the place. Why don't we have lots of Vikings all over instead, and then the Vikings can fight each other."[74] Lemmings' introduction of RTS elements has been noted by fantasy author Terry Pratchett; in his novel Interesting Times, an army of golems is controlled in a fashion reminiscent of the Lemmings user interface. When readers asked if this was deliberate, Pratchett responded: "Merely because the red army can fight, dig, march and climb and is controlled by little icons? Can't imagine how anyone thought that... Not only did I wipe Lemmings from my hard disk, I overwrote it so I couldn't get it back."[75]"

So, these are three examples for Lemmings having an influence on RTS games. Let's go through these:

1. If you say "Lemmings has also been called a predecessor of the modern RTS genre", you have to quote that someone actually says that. The Amiga Power quote says it introduced indirect controls. Then for some reason the statement that RTS games use indirect control isn't in quotation marks. Why? Is it original research? Most RTS games I played DON'T use indirect control. You give a command and click on the target. That's direct control. The only RTS I know that uses indirect control is Settlers. Dune 2, Warcraft, Command and Conquer are all controlled directly.

2. The fact that Orcs & Humans were originally concieved as Lemmings meet Vikings doesn't mean it ended up like that. It ended up like a reskin of Dune 2.

3. Terry Pratchett doesn't even mention RTS games. He mentions Lemmings.

These three examples are far fetched and cherry picked, and include some kind of weird theorizing that shouldn't be on Wikipedia. The statement that Lemmings is a predecessor of RTS games isn't obvious and need to be supported, and I think it's very telling that there is no quote that actually says that Lemmings were the predecessor of RTS games, even tho it is stated that someone said that. 80.98.184.139 (talk) 16:18, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 12 June 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Opposition based on the article covering the game across years refutes the incomplete disambiguation rationale. (non-admin closure) Dicklyon (talk) 06:10, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

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Lemmings (video game) → Lemmings (1991 video game) – Incomplete disambiguation due to the existence of Lemmings (2006 video game). _{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 01:24, 12 June 2019 (UTC)--Relisting. DannyS712 (talk) 20:16, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

• Comment: A name change is in order, but since the 2006 game is a remake or port, with the same levels and gameplay as the 1991 game, I'm not sure if this is the clearest title. To me, if its the "same game", just ported to another platform, it shouldn't be disambiguated just by year as that makes it seem like its two different, independently-developed games. WP:NCVGDAB gives an alternative of naming using the platform, so might the 2006 one might be better at Lemmings (PlayStation video game)? I'll wait to hear other opinions. -- Netoholic @ 05:06, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

The 2006 game is an enhanced 3D remake with new levels. If it's notable enough to have its own separate article it should be notable enough to be considered a new game IMO._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 15:04, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

• Support a move at least somewhere per WP:PRECISION as a WP:PDAB. Crouch, Swale (talk) 08:55, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose All video games named Lemmings are remakes or variations of this one, in 1991. It is not like there's two vastly different games named Lemmings which would have somewhat equal footing as a primary title - the 1991 game is that for "Lemming video game". As such, I don't think we need to disambiguate further.--Masem (t) 16:43, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

• The general public doesn't know that, or should be expected to. They simply see 2 games, and leaving one un-disambiguated is confusing._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 18:57, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

• And that's what hatnotes are for "This is about the original 1991 computer game. For the 2006 game, see...". I would strongly argue that people searching on "lemmings video game" are going to be looking for the original title and not the 2006 remake. --Masem (t) 20:28, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

• Merge the remake here, like we do with song covers when they have charted. Then the problem will go away. 114.153.213.26 (talk) 00:12, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose, albeit not strongly. I was a big fan of the original game and spent many childhood hours on the Mega Drive playing it. This is Lemmings and I would feel a parentheses would devalue this as the primary game topic. I can perhaps sympathise (just a little) with ZXCVBNM's point of view, although suggesting that the 2006 game is notable because of the existance of an article is subjective and not a matter of fact. The only scenerio I would feel support for the proposal to be reasonable is if there were a new, generic article created at this title to overview the "Lemmings" trilogy as a whole, in which case separation by year may be beneficial. In the absence of such an article, I can't see value in the proposal at this time. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:05, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose A hatnote can be used to alert readers to the existence of remake, but since it is a remake (rather than a distinctly different game), then this article should take precedence - this article is what most people will recognise as Lemmings, and we should reflect that unless and until the remake has more of an impact than the original. SFC9394 (talk) 20:37, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
• Support - as supported by the relevant guidelines, disambiguation which still leads to ambiguity should be further disambiguated. There is no primary topic for a disambiguated page. --Gonnym (talk) 14:24, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose - this is exactly what hatnotes are for. Chaheel Riens (talk) 15:13, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. The 1991 game is the clear main topic here. I would suggest different disambiguation for the 3 Sony Ports in 2006 if that would ease the naming issue. SnowFire (talk) 20:39, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 18:41, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. This is the WP:BROADCONCEPT article and WP:Primary topic for video games using the title. The remake is already mentioned in the article. No objection to renaming the other article Lemmings (PlayStation video game) or similar if platform rather than year helps avoid confusion. Station1 (talk) 17:54, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
• Support per nomination; Crouch, Swale; Gonnym and Ortizesp. The parenthetical qualifier "(video game)" represents incomplete disambiguation and should redirect to Lemming (disambiguation)#Other uses in arts, entertainment, and media. If there was consensus for moving Lemmings (2006 video game) → Lemmings (PlayStation video game), I wouldn't oppose such a move, although the retention of the term "video game" would still not alleviate the partial dab. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 04:32, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 5 November 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved (non-admin closure) BegbertBiggs (talk) 23:30, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

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Lemmings (video game) → Lemmings – There's a good case to be made for the game being a WP:PLURALPT. Pageviews are far in advance of any other "Lemmings" article. The situation is similar to, say, Planters. _{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 19:35, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

• Weak Support I generally am against pop culture topics overriding "persistent" topics (this case being a wellknown species of animal) but I agree the plural aspect is a fair rationale and a hat-note easily resolves the situation. And I will note that this game is the primary topic over the video game series (there may be other games, but this is the most well known game from it), the series should stay where it is.) --Masem (t) 19:47, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Given WP:PLURAL and that the Planters move is going to be challenged, I oppose this move per the additional reasons below. --Masem (t) 17:19, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
• Strong oppose per WP:ASTONISH the animal gets 23,748 views while video game only gets 10,198,[[1]] WP:PLURALPT gives the similar example of Cars redirecting to Car despite the fact that there is a film about cars which has similar views. When I Google Lemmings there are more results for the animal than the video game, Images also returns more results for the animal than the video game and Books only appears to return the animal. Planters is a bad president which probably should have been moved and WP:PLURALPT says "the normal situation is that a plural redirects to its singular" and since WP:SMALLDETAILS doesn't apply since its not possible to distinguish between "lemmings" and "Lemmings" (and might not be appropriate even if possible) the video game isn't primary. By long-term significance the animal is clearly primary and that's what the video game is based on just the the film Cars. However I do agree that it might be better to have no primary topic since users typing "Lemmings" could well be looking for the video game in which case redirect "Lemmings" to Lemming (disambiguation) or create a new DAB page. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:54, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose per Crouch, Swale, per common sense, and per "C'mon man!" Randy Kryn (talk) 21:38, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose see the real world here In ictu oculi (talk) 09:54, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

@Zxcvbnm: sorry but I believe that you have misread WP:PLURALPT, see comments on the faulty Planters RM Feb 2020 Talk:Planters#NO:PRIMARY_agrees_with_WP:PLURALPT , the guideline is the opposite of what was stated. That Planters RM needs to be reopened and corrected to fit what WP:PLURALPT actually says. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:15, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose. The proposal makes sense in every language except English. "Lemmings" is an actual word in English, and the creatures themselves are more notable than the video game. JIP | Talk 16:53, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

  Some languages (French and German) have the video game series as the primary topic but no such articles exists here. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:43, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose. Srnec (talk) 21:02, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
• Commons:Category:Lemmings is now a DAB page. Crouch, Swale (talk) 11:06, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
• Comment: In case it is relevant, I want to note that there was an earlier game of the same name published in 1982 by Sirius Software: [2] It was obviously not as notable as this game, but it was reviewed at least in Creative Computing[3] and Softalk[4]. BOZ (talk) 03:35, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
  • I don't think that game is even that well know that even if we had an article on it, it would overtake this game as the best to be at "(video game)", this game is simply too well known as the "Lemmings video game". --Masem (t) 03:39, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
  • I never knew about this earlier, unrelated Lemmings game, but apparently it exists. I think that if we had an article about it, it would be at Lemmings (1982 video game), with the Psygnosis game still at Lemmings (video game), because that's what most people think of when they hear "Lemmings" (instead of "lemmings"). JIP | Talk 10:52, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
  • That's about what I figured, but I also thought it might be worth bringing up. I found reviews of it in older magazines a while back and got curious what it was about. The premise sounds similar, but I am sure the actual gameplay is largely different. BOZ (talk) 14:31, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
    • I have played Lemmings (the game we're talking about here) extensively, but never played this earlier, unrelated Lemmings game at all (I didn't know it existed before today). Looking at the MobyGames description and the reviews, all they have in common is that they're about lemmings. The actual gameplays don't really have anything at all to do with each other. JIP | Talk 15:01, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. The plural is a clear primary redirect to the singular. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:14, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Steel Worker?

Should the 1980 arcade game Steel Worker not be mentioned here in some way? It is incredibly similar. 111.106.166.232 (talk) 17:18, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

If there are sources that deem their similarities notable enough, then maybe. Otherwise, no. – Rhain ☔ 23:40, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

"Lemmings (video game" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Lemmings (video game has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 3 § Lemmings (video game until a consensus is reached. Utopes _{(talk / cont)} 18:16, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

"Largely ignored and relatively unknown in the video game industry"

I can't ping you as my computer can't copy and paste the characters after the numbers in your username. I refer to your edit here: [5]. I feel like it is you who are using current citations that aren't suitable to what you are saying.

Firstly, as per WP:LEAD, the lead is supposed to summarise the most important parts of the body of the article. Your added information isn't even mentioned at all in the body, therefore it is completely unacceptable for you to place it in the lead.

More importantly, you claim the game is "largely ignored and relatively unknown in the video game industry", yet your sources do not support this. You have two sources. Neither states the game is relatively unknown. The Super Jump source is of debated notability, and possibly cannot be used at all as it appears to fail WP:RS. I note the source is not popular enough to have even been mentioned at Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Sources, so I've starting a conversation about it there for other editors to determine it's reliability. In any case, it only states the game is "sometimes forgotten", not "relatively unknown". The Kotaku source, which indeed is notable, only says the game "wasn’t actually as good as [they] thought it was in the first place", citing the slow gameplay. This is already covered with due weight in the reception area. Your claim that the game is "Largely ignored and relatively unknown in the video game industry" is simply not supported by your limited sources. Damien Linnane (talk) 07:51, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

I didn't noticed that the cites said that the reasons for lose of popularity at the late 90's is because this game is because it have slow pace. זור987 (talk) 07:56, 9 March 2024 (UTC)