Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Eurovision

Sources: eurovisionartists.nl / natfinals.50webs.com

Just to alert you that a discussion on these two websites is going on at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Eurovision/Sources. There is no consensus so far, you are welcome to have your say! EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 17:57, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Issue with logo image

File:Eurovision Young Musicians 2024 logo.png Hey all, does anybody know how to fix this or could find a better alternative? Thanks, Fort esc (talk) 23:18, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hey @Fort esc, I have just updated it to a black version, thanks for bringing this up! Aris Odi ❯❯❯ talk 03:54, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Broadcaster in the infobox song contest national year

Hi. I don't know if this has ever been discussed before, but I'm wondering why the participating broadcaster is not in the Infobox song contest national year, when it is actually the one entering the contest. Ferclopedio (talk) 08:39, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, why is it not? — IмSтevan ^talk 08:40, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's a really good question, it really should include that. Aris Odi ❯❯❯ talk 11:20, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I hadn't considered this. I support changing the infobox to include this. Ktkvtsh (talk) 16:08, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OK. Is four enough quorum? Anyway, I'm going to request the change on the talk page of the template. Let's see if some kind soul will listen to us. Ferclopedio (talk) 19:54, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I oppose this. The infobox is not a in depth view of the participation's entire background for the year and in most cases, the broadcaster is a stable and the same each year. I'm not sure what adding this "adds" for the reader. Grk1011 (talk) 20:57, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The contest is a competition between broadcasters, adding the participating broadcaster is not a vision of depth but is one of the fundamental data of the article, which should also appear prominently in the lead section. Of course there are broadcasters that have been stable over the years, but there are cases where they have not been, such as in France, Belgium, Germany, and Russia, to give just a couple of examples of the seventeen that I have counted. Ferclopedio (talk) 21:21, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The lead section is the prose, where this information is always presented prominently. The regular country in articles have the broadcaster in the infobox because those articles are about that country (and broadcaster's) overall participation efforts. The impact is not the same for the country in year articles where the broadcaster is certainly relevant information, but it is not particularly interesting to the reader and has no bearing on the quick-reference nature of an infobox. Grk1011 (talk) 13:07, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Does it not? To me it feels like the broadcaster is even more relevant than the country — IмSтevan ^talk 13:13, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It comes down to the audience of the article and the impact. It is through the national broadcaster (a government entity) that the country is represented, otherwise articles, press, viewers, etc. would be saying things like "BBC in the Eurovision Song Contest"; however, these articles are about the countries. The broadcaster is an important part of how the participation occurs, but it does not need to be that prominent for the quick-reference nature of the infobox. Do we have any sense of why the viewer would need to know the specific broadcaster as they scan the page for the results, which is the point of the infobox on these pages? The information is still in the body of the articles. To be blunt, I cannot figure out why someone would care what the broadcaster was at the high level overview. Grk1011 (talk) 13:40, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why would the viewer need to know who composed the song since that's also featured in the infobox? Because it's relevant to the entry, and so is the competing broadcaster — IмSтevan ^talk 13:48, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I completely disagree with that comparison. Grk1011 (talk) 13:51, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Grk1011, I am sorry, but your reasoning is based on assumptions and general beliefs that are not true, rather than on actual facts.

The EBU is an organisation of broadcasting companies with their own independent legal entity. The fact that they are publicly funded or state-owned does not make them a government entity. In fact, the EBU would not allow a government entity to be a member, as it requires a certain level of impartiality and independence for membership (a level that the Russian and Belarusian broadcasters do not meet, which is why they were expelled).

The participating broadcaster enters the competition representing its country, meaning that it competes under the name of its country, for better identification in the international competition, and to give local viewers the feeling that the participation is theirs and not just that of the broadcaster. This does not mean that the country is the one that competes, and statements like "the broadcaster organizes the country's participation", "the broadcaster participates on behalf of the country", "the broadcaster selects the country's entry", and the like, which are all over Wikipedia, are all wrong. The broadcaster participates in the contest in its own right, and has full control over its participation. It is not just an important part of how the participation occurs, it is who really participate and who pay to do so.

The ESC is a television co-production (legal, financial, and technical) of the participating broadcasters, who elect the members of the committee that governs the event on behalf of all of them. The participating broadcaster is not only "responsible for choosing a song and broadcasting the event" (another wrong statement all around Wikipedia). The participating broadcaster is the one invited by the EBU to participate; the one who decides whether to participate or not; the one who pays the participation fee to finance the event; the one who selects a song freely at his discretion, organizing or not a national final that it can take into account or not; the one who secures the rights of the song from the songwriters; the one who hires the performer (and the conductor when there was an orchestra) for the live performance; the one who has to provide the EBU with all the legal and audiovisual documentation of its entry, including contracts, lyrics, the video-clip (in most cases produced by itself), music track (or sheet music for the orchestra), and the camerawork layout for the live broadcasting; the one who decides on the staging of the live performance; the one who appoints a head of delegation as its contact with the EBU, and the one responsible for its delegation at the event; the one who assembles the "national" jury for the competition (even when there was only televoting, since the jury was the backup); the one who hires the notary public to certify its jury's vote; the one who owns the broadcasting rights and the brand exploitation rights in the country (exclusively or shared with the other EBU members in the same country); the one who produces the broadcast for his local viewers with its own commentators and onscreen information; the one who produces and transmits the voting segment of its spokesperson for the international broadcast; the one who bears expenses of all this; the one who has to host the contest the following year in case of winning; and the one who takes all the criticism if the participation was not successful. (And I've probably left out some other things). The participating broadcaster is not only a fundamental data for an entrant but also for the event itself.

The country in year articles are the most in-depth articles of this project with the most detailed information on a participation, and it is the place where it makes the most sense to have the information of the participating broadcaster, as it is an indispensable element of the participation, since it has the power over the song and the performer. @ImStevan's feeling that the participating broadcaster is even more relevant than the country is correct, I would say that it is the most important piece of information of the participation. And you only have to look at country in year articles from old years to see that in many cases, it's not just that it's not in the lead section, it's that it's not even mentioned anywhere in the prose or it's mentioned as something totally secondary. There are even articles that have passed the GA review that talk about a wrong participating broadcaster.

The use in Wikipedia of the name of the country when speaking in general and in the country and country in year articles is also for better identification of the participant internationally, and to group all the entrants that come from the same country in the same place and in the same way. In no way does it mean that it is the country that participates. And indeed, the local press throughout Europe talks extensively about the participation of the broadcaster in the contest ("BBC at the Eurovision Song Contest", for example).

All this is not just me saying it, it is said by the EBU and the participating broadcasters in all their official documentation and communications, starting with the rules of the competition, an extract of which can be read here.

And this has nothing to do with the audience of the article and the impact, this is not a blog, this is an encyclopedia, and it has to do with the presentation of the information and facts correctly, preferably in order of importance. And the participating broadcaster is, indeed, the foremost piece of information of an entry, whether you are interested in knowing it or not. Ferclopedio (talk) 22:18, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Flags or hearts

Why are we utilizing default flags in tables and infoboxes when heart-flags of Eurovision are available to us? Much like Olympic pictograms on its pages, surely we could utilize a part of Eurovision's branding and recognizability on its pages, as such:

First semi-final of the Eurovision Song Contest 2024
R/O	Country	Artist	Song	Points	Place
1	Moldova	Natalia Barbu	"In the Middle"	20	4
2	Cyprus	Silia Kapsis	"Liar"	67	2
3	Serbia	Teya Dora	"Ramonda"	47	3
4	Lithuania	Silvester Belt	"Luktelk"	119	1
5	Iceland	Hera Björk	"Scared of Heights"	3	5

— IмSтevan ^talk 15:59, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Edit: These flags are also all in the same dimensions, which would create consistency — IмSтevan ^talk 18:16, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is a great idea. I support the use of these instead of the rectangle flags for Eurovision related tables such as the example above. Ktkvtsh (talk) 16:07, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think such a change is absolutely pointless. It may be branding but we're not here for branding, are we? And also I personally don't like it esthetically... Yoyo360 (talk) 16:39, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Yoyo360, I don't think these look good at all, and the Wikipedia article that you linked literally has flags in their respective rectangular shapes on it Spleennn (talk) 18:58, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I was talking about sports pictograms — IмSтevan ^talk 19:04, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and I was talking about flags. I don't understand the logic in changing how the flags on one Wikipedia page look according to the way that sport pictograms look on a different page, when the same page has flags that look exactly how the current flags on Eurovision Wikipedia look. Spleennn (talk) 19:55, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The point was that it's not unprecedented to use icons in tables like that. I suggested it because these hearts are tied to these countries' presence at the contest, but perhaps it makes sense not to use them as they didn't even exist until 2004 — IмSтevan ^talk 20:16, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I'm not sure that the use of the heart-flags can be applied in a general way, for several reasons.

- First, as it is noted on the page where it lists them: "heart-flags are not adopted until Eurovision Song Contest (ESC) 2004, Junior Eurovision Song Contest (JESC) 2008, and never exist in Eurovision Young Dancers (EYD), Eurovision Young Musicians (EYM) and Eurovision Magic Circus Show (EMCS)", so the use of heart-flags in a general way, besides being weird, is not historically accurate. In addition, we have two versions of the heart-flags, the one 2004-14 and the 2015-present, and the one corresponding to the year in question should be used. This would lead us to the flags being displayed differently depending on the year.

- Second, that the use of the heart-flags means to modify the Country in the Eurovision Song Contest template according to everything said above. An additional year (or flag shape version) parameter will have to be added to the template so that it can display the correct flag, which means that it would have to be edited every time that the template is used to set the corresponding year (flag shape version).

- Third, the fact that rectangular flags were used some years and heart-shaped flags other years leads to the question of what to do with the most relevant flag, the large flag in the Infobox song contest country. Should it be rectangular or heart-shaped?. If it is heart-shaped, you have to make sure it is displayed correctly in the infobox, in the Wikipedia search box, and in the pop-ups when hovering over links. Either way it would not be coherent in either case, since there would be three different shaped flags all over the years. Ferclopedio (talk) 20:26, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ImStevan, I just read your last reply just after finishing writing my long paragraph. Let it be noted that I don't dislike the idea, but I'm not sure its application is possible when taking into account all the cases. Ferclopedio (talk) 20:49, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose any changes from the standard official flags to the heart ones, this is a general encyclopedia and not one just for Eurovision fans. -- AxG / ✉ 21:28, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. This is starting to creep towards a MOS:FLAG violation. The flags as they are used now are to aid in identification of the countries. Using heart variants makes it instead a type of decoration. Grk1011 (talk) 20:53, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Venue Coordinates

I am wondering if everyone would be okay with me adding coordinates of host venues to Eurovision articles. All it would do is feature the venue coordinates in the title of the page. Ktkvtsh (talk) 20:09, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would prefer it as a part of the infobox, as a part of the venue value — IмSтevan ^talk 20:48, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder if it's really necessary to add that. The articles are about events, not venues, and the coordinates are in the corresponding venue article after all. Ferclopedio (talk) 07:57, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it is making it about the venue, I think it is more about where the event was located in general. Isn't that what the (add coordinates) space is for? Ktkvtsh (talk) 21:16, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Noted. Thanks. I won't proceed with it. Ktkvtsh (talk) 15:52, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Eurovizija.LT

Should we create the Eurovizija.LT page instead of it being a redirect to Lithuania in Eurovision 2024? Ktkvtsh (talk) 17:47, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For now it only had one edition so let's keep it together — IмSтevan ^talk 18:26, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]