Talk:Elon Musk

"PhD" not supported by citations & "dropout" refuted by citations

With regard to:

"In 1995, he was accepted to a PhD program in materials science at Stanford University.[47][51][55] However, Musk decided to join the Internet boom, dropping out two days after being accepted and applying for a job at Netscape, to which he reportedly never received a response.[56][38]"

The citations establish that Musk was accepted into a "graduate" program in Materials Science Engineering. That could be either a Master's program or a PhD program. It is not specified. The citations also establish that Musk did not enroll, which means "dropping out" was impossible.

I suggest the passage above be rewritten as:

"In 1995, he was accepted into a graduate program in Materials Science Engineering at Stanford University, but did not enroll.[47][51] Musk decided to join the Internet boom, applying for a job at Netscape, to which he reportedly never received a response.[56][38]"

Note that I omitted the Bloomberg [55] citation as it merely repeats the "dropout" claim without providing information contradicting the letter from Stanford that says he did not enroll [51]. StanfordMSME (talk) 17:19, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

 Done thank you for the clarification! Feoffer (talk) 01:22, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

The statement at the top of the article (that he "dropped out after two days") should probably also be amended. According to the letter from the admissions officer, he did not enroll.

He failed to graduate from Penn after being admitted to Stanford, so it is possible that he was admitted but had his admission rescinded. 2603:8080:1301:16DC:618C:D41C:D0DC:6B3 (talk) 21:44, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

There's no room in the article for things that are possible but not established, nor for things that are impossible, such as "dropping out" of a school one hasn't attended. Suggested: "but instead co-founded Zip2, an online city guide software company, with his brother Kimbal." 2601:642:4600:D3B0:80D3:EA:68F8:1E43 (talk) 23:09, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

He finished his coursework in 1995 and graduated from Penn in 1997,[1] but only one of his bachelor's degrees is from Penn.[2]

We may be able to find a source that says he didn't enroll because his degree was still pending until 1997 due to paperwork clearance. 173.230.86.127 (talk) 16:29, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

He received a BA from Penn in 1997 because he was missing a required writing seminar in 1995 and his BS in economics from Penn in 1995. The only reason it's two degrees is because he didn't qualify for the Bachelor of Arts and Sciences in econ in 1995. 140.228.133.253 (talk) 16:38, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Negative ghost rider. BA in physics and BS in econ, both awarded in 1997.[3]

In 2019, Aaron Greenspan, owner of the legal website Plainsite, as well as a frequent critic of, and litigant against, Elon Musk, asked Penn for a statement on Musk's degrees. In response, the university's public affairs office stated that: Elon Musk earned a B.A. in physics and a B.S. in economics (concentrations: finance and entrepreneurial management) from the University of Pennsylvania. The degrees were awarded on May 19, 1997.

This source says the delay was due to a paperwork issue.[4]

It would be safe to assume that he decided not to do the PhD program and did in fact "drop out" because he took two years to sort out the issue preventing him from being award the degrees. 71.120.188.59 (talk) 16:45, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

"safe to assume"? That's not how Wikipedia works. I did grad school at Stanford. I was accepted at 5 other schools. Would you say I "dropped out" from all of them? 166.205.190.144 (talk) 22:56, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

No, but could see why Musk would characterize it that way. He chose not to continue his education and you did. 2601:603:1200:15B0:30E4:422E:3C9:19B5 (talk) 02:27, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Nuance in the wording in the lede on the term "early investor in Tesla"

Yes Elon Musk was an "early investor" in Tesla, however I think some additional clarification or wording is needed to avoid the default assumption that is made when people read that statement. As written it basically implies that Musk had no involvement in the company after investing and "early investment" brings an image of a company that already exists and is growing at the time of investment. Neither of which is true. Simply saying he helped found the company isn't accurate either but wording that represents the position somewhere in the middle is needed. Does anyone have any suggestions? Can we simply add "very" to "early"? What about "invested in and became involved with"? I'll make an edit and then we can discuss further changes. Ergzay (talk) 19:20, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

The original wording in no way implies universal acceptance of Musk as making antisemitic statements, so the addition is superfluous. Additionally, the edit is paradigmatically weasel wording, so I recommend all invested editors (re)read the appropriate MoS section closely. QRep2020 (talk) 01:45, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

@QRep2020 It's the opposite of weasel wording. Weasel wording is when you use words to prop up a statement. What I'm doing is properly contextualizing wikivoice into closer to what the rest of the article states.

Quoting: "The examples above are not automatically weasel words. They may also be used in the lead section of an article or in a topic sentence of a paragraph, and the article body or the rest of the paragraph can supply attribution." Ergzay (talk) 03:44, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

What part of "In 2004 he contributed most of the initial investment in and became heavily involved with electric vehicle manufacturer Tesla Motors, Inc. (later Tesla, Inc.). He became the company's chairman and product architect, and in 2008 assumed the position of CEO." has weasel words? Ergzay (talk) 03:51, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

You are proposing or making so many changes so quickly to this article that I ended up referring to changed text in the wrong place. As you could obviously tell, what with me discussing antisemitic matters instead of what he was doing in 2004. Take a breather. QRep2020 (talk) 06:49, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

The following text was reverted by QRep2020 claiming above that it contains weasel words:

In 2004 he contributed most of the initial investment in and became heavily involved with electric vehicle manufacturer Tesla Motors, Inc. (later Tesla, Inc.). He became the company's chairman and product architect, and in 2008 assumed the position of CEO.

back to:

In 2004, Musk was an early investor in electric vehicle manufacturer Tesla Motors, Inc. (later Tesla, Inc.). He became the company's chairman and product architect, assuming the position of CEO in 2008.

Pinging some people to see if there is consensus for this change. If you have issues with it, be constructive. @Slatersteven @Feoffer @BoldGnome @ReferenceMan @Tikaboo. Ergzay (talk) 04:05, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

I have no view on this matter other than that it's abundantly obvious to anyone with any sense or understanding of weasel words that neither text includes weasel words. BoldGnome (talk) 04:11, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

I like the change, it's a little less vague with more detail. Tikaboo (talk) 04:18, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

This is a toughie cause I do see what we're trying to do by improving on "early investor". He wasn't just an early investor, he was (my OR words) early and pivotal. That said, the first text feels REALLY forced, like we're going out of our way to remind the reader how important he was.

My instinct is to try to find a RS quote calling him something more than an mere "early investor"? How much is "most", what is "heavily involved" -- we can pin that down more. Feoffer (talk) 04:19, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Something like "He was an early investor who provided most of the initial financing in electric vehicle manufacturer Tesla Motors, Inc. (later Tesla, Inc.)." Describing him becoming the chairman, etc. in the following sentence already implies his heavy involvement. QRep2020 (talk) 07:08, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Works for me. Feoffer (talk) 11:05, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

How about "In 2004, Musk led the initial funding for electric vehicle manufacturer Tesla Motors, Inc (later Tesla, Inc.), and became the company's chairman. He later became the product architect, and in 2008 the CEO."

Citation: Isaacson, p. 128. "Eberhard faced a problem. He had an idea and a name, but he had no funding...After a follow-up meeting that included Tarpenning, they agreed that Musk would lead the initial financing round with a $6.4 million investment and become chair of the board...The pieces thus came together for what would become the world’s most valuable and transformative automobile company: Eberhard as CEO, Tarpenning as president, Straubel as chief technology officer, Wright as chief operating officer, and Musk as the chair of the board and primary funder. Years later, after many bitter disputes and a lawsuit, they agreed that all five of them would be called cofounders." ReferenceMan (talk) 14:05, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Nice -- I think my favorite wording for the first sentence is yours: "In 2004, Musk led the initial funding for electric vehicle manufacturer Tesla Motors, Inc (later Tesla, Inc.), and became the company's chairman. " I think I would like to see the $6.4M figure included and "chairman" specified as 'of the board' for people readers who aren't familiar with corporate structure; see what others think. Feoffer (talk) 14:23, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

I think we should say he bought a majority stake rather than 'led the initial funding', which doesn't have clear meaning to most readers I think. Tikaboo (talk) 14:37, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

OK. How about: "In 2004, Musk provided most of the initial funding for electric vehicle manufacturer Tesla Motors, Inc (later Tesla, Inc.), and became the chairman of the board. He later became the product architect, and in 2008 the CEO."

ReferenceMan (talk) 14:48, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

@Tikaboo, "majority stake" sort of suggests maybe they had lots of funding already but Musk bought those funders out; I don't think that's the case.

I'm good with your first sentence if others are. Product architect is its own thing, I don't [yet] know what it means or when it happened. Feoffer (talk) 14:52, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Product architect is a good question. The earliest reliable source I've found is from 2009:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/08/24/plugged-in

"Musk, thirty-eight, is the chairman, C.E.O., and product architect of Tesla Motors"

which is corroborated by a tesla.com blog post from 2010:

https://www.tesla.com/blog/stanford-business-school-taps-tesla-motors-global-executive-program-customer-in

"said Tesla CEO and Product Architect Elon Musk."

ReferenceMan (talk) 16:34, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

@Feoffer It was more than "majority stake". Majority stake just implies over 50%, whereas Musk was at 90%. I think it's important to clarify, in effect, the company was almost fully owned by him from the day the company really got going. Ergzay (talk) 06:19, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

More than the numeric value I think it's important that the percentage value be important, which was according to available sources, 90%. Ergzay (talk) 06:16, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Sure why not. QRep2020 (talk) 18:52, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Why add words? Slatersteven (talk)

I combined people's thoughts and have added the wording to the article as follows:

In 2004, Musk was an early investor who provided most of the initial financing in electric vehicle manufacturer Tesla Motors, Inc. (later Tesla, Inc.) becoming the company's chairman. He later became the product architect, and in 2008 the CEO.

Any thoughts @Feoffer @QRep2020 @ReferenceMan @Tikaboo @Slatersteven? Ergzay (talk) 05:00, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

I only now noticed the inflected repetition of 'become'. What about "assuming the role of the company's chairman"? Minor thing, otherwise the edit works. QRep2020 (talk) 06:01, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Ah good point. I'll fix that. Ergzay (talk) 07:48, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Actually on second thought I think "assuming the role" has the wrong implication. A chairman isn't just a "role". Some other type of wording is needed. Ergzay (talk) 07:50, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm going to go with "assuming the position of the company's chairman" for the moment. Ergzay (talk) 07:50, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Lead currently claims that Elon Musk endorsed (as in agreed with) antisemitic conspiracy theories

This is not backed up by the content of the article. He several times said that he was sorry for what he said and that he was sorry for giving a "loaded gun to those who ... are antisemitic". Pushing in the lede that he endorsed antisemetic conspiracy theories misconstrues the rest of the article's content. @QRep2020 please don't revert it again. Ergzay (talk) 00:09, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

He apologized for what exactly then?

Also are you familiar with BRD? You made the change, I changed it back, we're discussing it now. Why change it again? QRep2020 (talk) 00:23, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Are you familiar with WP:BRB? I agree, we're discussing now. He apologized for making the tweet that implied he was pushing support for antisemitism. As written the lede implies that Elon Musk himself is an antisemite. Ergzay (talk) 00:32, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

According to Wikidictionary, 'endorse' means "To express support or approval, especially officially or publicly". He publicly expressed approval of an antisemitic theory and then later claimed that it was a mistake. All we know for a fact is the utterance as we have no window into the man's mind. "Mistakenly endorsed" assumes too much.

Besides, reliable sources use that very language:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/elon-musk-actual-truth-antisemitic-post-backlash-advertisers/

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/16/technology/elon-musk-endorses-antisemitic-post-ibm.html

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/jan/22/elon-musk-visits-auschwitz-antisemitism-twitter-x

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/elon-musk-begins-wartime-visit-israel-aviation-tracker-says-2023-11-27/

QRep2020 (talk) 00:55, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Again, you can't put into wikipedia voice text that implies things through the writing that different things are happening. This is the point of the prohibition of weasel words, because they can misconstrue what happened. If you don't like "mistakenly endorse" then a different word can be chosen than "endorse" because he did not express support for antisemite conspiracy theories. Ergzay (talk) 01:21, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

But he did - he made a public expression of approval. And reliable sources covering the act described it as such. That isn't weasel wording - "appearing to endorse" is.

Can you provide the updated language you're recommending on the Talk page instead of making changes each time on the live article? It's more conducive to a discussion that way. Thanks. QRep2020 (talk) 01:41, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

I personally prefer to make edits to the page to propose changes rather than for them to get lost in discussions. It makes things more concrete. If you don't like a word choice, feel free to make an edit and comment why you chose it on the talk page. And I can do the same and we can continue to discuss and edit. As long as we're not putting the same thing back in the article there is no edit warring happening. Ergzay (talk) 01:48, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

As to "But he did - he made a public expression of approval.". He made a vague statement that was easily open to various interpretations. As he said, "I gave a loaded gun to those who hate me and to antisemites". Ergzay (talk) 01:52, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

The tweet he responded to ended with "You want the truth said to your face, there it is". Musk said "You have said the actual truth". It isn't vague in the slightest. QRep2020 (talk) 02:10, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

"Appearing to endorse" would be weasel wording if he hadn't afterwards clearly apologized and explained that what happened wasn't his intention, but considering he did, I don't see how it is. Ergzay (talk) 23:10, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

I've rewritten it again removing "mistakenly". Ergzay (talk) 01:25, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

I'll also add even the words "support" and "approval" implies that the person actually likes what is being proposed. As you said, we cannot read the mind of Elon Musk so we should not imply that he thinks a certain way. That's why the article takes careful care to just use the quotations of the tweets almost in full. Ergzay (talk) 01:31, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, hence the usage of 'endorsing', which denotes a public expression. His thinking doesn't factor in. QRep2020 (talk) 02:13, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

For someone to endorse something they need to agree with it. It's not a purely externally observable action. Ergzay (talk) 15:25, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

It's possible we're talking different definitions of endorse. You appear to be reading it in the sense that some person endorses a political candidate with a public statement. I'm taking it in the sense that someone is endorsing a viewpoint they agree with. This is why endorse is a poor choice of word. Ergzay (talk) 15:27, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm using the primary definition from Wikitionary: 1. To express support or approval, especially officially or publicly. The only other definition from there that applies to this circumstance would be: 3. To give an endorsement. You can't express or give something that isn't somehow available to others.

Here's Merriam-Webster's: 2. a. to approve openly, especially: to express support or approval of publicly and definitely. Again, you can't approve openly in the privacy of subjectivity.

Endorsement at its core is verifiable. Hence the other lexicography for the word: endorsing a check, endorsing a product, etc.

The attempt to use the notions I introduced against my own arguments is crafty, but keeps falling short. We're covering the same ground over and over. QRep2020 (talk) 00:29, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

You added the wording "that latter of", which I agree is a good change, but if we were to go back to your preferred wording without the "appearing to" it would read

He has been criticized for making unscientific and misleading statements, including COVID-19 misinformation and endorsing antisemitic conspiracy theories, the latter of which he later apologized for.

If you endorse something and then you apologize for endorsing it, that's a confusion in terms as it presents an image of someone who's only sarcastically apologizing. Keeping "appearing to" is now vital to maintain clarity and match the rest of the article. Ergzay (talk) 05:31, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Right now it's "theories" as in multiple, but I thought it was just that one Tweet he agreed with. Also I'm curious if detailing that in the lead is the most appropriate. I feel like that was big news for a while but other right-wing (sometimes conspiracy) stuff has had more staying power and attention. Instead of specifying COVID-19 and that specific Tweet about Jews, how about something like this: Musk has expressed views that have made him a polarizing figure. He has been criticized for promoting right-wing and far-right conspiracy theories and misinformation. His ownership of Twitter has been similarly controversial, with studies alleging an increase in hate speech, misinformation and disinformation posts on the website Tikaboo (talk) 16:56, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

The "He has been criticized for making unscientific and misleading statements, including COVID-19 misinformation" part came from a somewhat recent and lengthy Talk page discussion. We need keep that part. QRep2020 (talk) 18:28, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

As for the "theories" part, the tweet he affirmed as the actual truth bundles together multiple antisemitic arguments. QRep2020 (talk) 18:31, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Hmm, I just think he's engaged in such a varied array of right-wing/far-right/conspiracy stuff that we're kind of out of date by honing in on covid which is old news, and the antisemitism Tweet which is a singular moment without as much staying power. I think we can come up with better wording that encompasses it all. I'll leave the discussion here if others don't agree though. Tikaboo (talk) 23:24, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

@QRep2020 Doesn't using scare quotes violate Wikipedia MOS? Ergzay (talk) 06:58, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

QRep2020 edited on 27 June 2024 to put quotes "endorsing". I can't tell if they're scare quotes, it's so easy to look at quote marks and think they're somebody's actual wording. Anyway, the Vanity Fair source which uses the word "endorse" says it was endorsement of a single post rather than endorsement of all that's on the linked-to anti-semitic conspiracy theories page so it should be attributed to the critic(s) or deleted. By the way, WP:BRD is just an essay, WP:BLPUNDEL is a policy. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:21, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

The Bloomberg article clearly uses 'endorsing'. QRep2020 (talk) 15:34, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

There, I included the entire clause from the article. QRep2020 (talk) QRep2020 (talk) 15:42, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

And, for the record, I disagree with any characterization of the tweet as endorsing a single antisemitic theory, but so be it. QRep2020 (talk) 15:55, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Incompatible with MOS:LINKQUOTE if it's possible that the authors didn't mean what you linked to, incompatible with WP:RS/QUOTE if it doesn't make clear the actual source of the text, incompatible with WP:WELLKNOWN if he denied, and probably you won't get consensus but we'll see. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 17:02, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Did you read the source? QRep2020 (talk) 22:11, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

No I'm not a Bloomberg subscriber. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 22:33, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't know why this is even in the lede. If you need so many words to describe what happened, it is probably not lede-worthy. Schierbecker (talk) 02:44, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Last sentence of lead: "an increase in hate speech, misinformation and disinformation on the website"

Should probably note in the lead that this allegation relies on just the number of hate speech Tweets, whereas Twitter says that the actual views these hate speech Tweets get has been reduced. Tikaboo (talk) 10:50, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Done. QRep2020 (talk) 13:12, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

I mean Twitter's response that there's been a decrease in views of hate speech should be included. Tikaboo (talk) 18:32, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Mentioning Twitter's suppression of impressions of hateful posts can go in the article but I don't think it belongs in the lead. It might work in the lead for Twitter under Elon Musk as it's part of the content moderation policy adopted after the acquisition. QRep2020 (talk) 19:08, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 June 2024

change:

Two years later, he transferred to the University of Pennsylvania, an Ivy League university in Philadelphia, where he earned two degrees, a Bachelor of Arts in physics, and a Bachelor of Science degree in economics from the university's Wharton School. Although Musk has said that he earned the degrees in 1995, the University of Pennsylvania did not award them until 1997. He reportedly hosted large, ticketed house parties to help pay for tuition, and wrote a business plan for an electronic book-scanning service similar to Google Books.

In 1994, Musk held two internships in Silicon Valley: one at energy storage startup Pinnacle Research Institute, which investigated electrolytic ultracapacitors for energy storage, and another at Palo Alto–based startup Rocket Science Games. In 1995, he was accepted to a graduate program in materials science at Stanford University, but did not enroll. Musk decided to join the Internet boom, applying for a job at Netscape, to which he reportedly never received a response.

to:

Two years later, he transferred to the University of Pennsylvania, an Ivy League university in Philadelphia, where he earned two degrees, a Bachelor of Arts in physics, and a Bachelor of Science degree in economics from the university's Wharton School. Musk has said that he earned the degrees in 1995; the same year he was accepted to a graduate program in materials science at Stanford University. The University of Pennsylvania did not award his degrees until 1997 due to a paperwork issue and he never enrolled at Stanford. Musk describes this as dropping out, and said he decided to join the Internet boom, applying for a job at Netscape, to which he reportedly never received a response.

While in undergraduate school, he reportedly hosted large, ticketed house parties to help pay for tuition, and wrote a business plan for an electronic book-scanning service similar to Google Books. In 1994, Musk held two internships in Silicon Valley: one at energy storage startup Pinnacle Research Institute, which investigated electrolytic ultracapacitors for energy storage, and another at Palo Alto–based startup Rocket Science Games.

paperwork issue 2600:1700:27C1:2AF0:6849:9128:8000:E145 (talk) 17:46, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Why is this a good edit to make? I'm not sure what is significantly different here other than a re-ordering of the paragraphs. Ergzay (talk) 05:18, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 July 2024

Add sentence noting disputed immigration status of Elon and Kimbal Musk in section "Zip2" c. 1994. Ref links: Watch Elon Musk Talk About Being an Illegal Immigrant (Gizmodo)

Transcript for: Elon Musk and the frontier of Technology. TurtlyBurtly (talk) 23:46, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

The second link does not dispute his immigration status. The first link is about a tweet, taken out of context, and it was Kimbal Musk obviously exaggerating for a crowd. (Also it's just poor journalism, the video has been publicly available on youtube for anyone to look up the entire time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgV2KzyWKx0 ) Ergzay (talk) 05:07, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Kimbal may be exaggerating, he may not be - not sure how you can assume his intent from the clip, and to be clear, I'm suggesting that a sentence be added acknowledging that there is disagreement, not conclusive evidence. Elon is very cagey about his past, particularly pre-PayPal. He claimed in a 2018 tweet to have arrived in North America around 1988 and per an interview quoted in Snopes was in the US with an H-1B visa. This would require him to be employed in a "specialty occupation" per the USCIS, which dropping out of graduate school to start a tech company would not qualify for. From H-1B Visa: "A person in H-1B status must continue to be employed by their employer in order to stay in H-1B status. If the person's employment ends for any reason, the person must leave the United States, unless the person applies for and is granted a change of status or finds another employer compatible with the H-1B status." Elon's own words indicate he probably was in violation of this. TurtlyBurtly (talk) 19:34, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

None of that makes sense though as an H-1B Visa is not what you are on when you're getting a college degree in the US. That would be an F-1 visa or something else. This is a page that is a biography of living persons. Just making vague statements that his immigration status may or may not be valid feels like it's standing on shaky ground. Anyway I've said my piece. I won't reply anymore on this and if other people want to add it we can discuss then on exactly what should be added. Ergzay (talk) 02:09, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Where do we want to cover the Errol stuff?

Errol has falsely claimed to have funded Zip2, was reliably accused of abuse of his wife and children, reportedly suffers from very severe mental illness, and fathered two children with his former stepdaughter. He also claims to have shot and killed multiple people.

On the one hand, Errol's primary notability (aside from 1970s politics) is from the abuse allegations against him. I created Familial relationships of Errol Musk try to get that info OFF Elon and Maye's respective BLPs -- you don't document an abuser on their victim's BLP; but that article has its own problems because it doesn't cover Errol's political career like a BLP should.

Where should we put what is known about Errol? If he weren't a media figure with famous family, perhaps we could just delete him away, but because he's become a media gadfly, it's not fair to Elon et al for us to NOT document his behavior somewhere. Could we put it in a sub-article of Elon's or Maye's BLP? Feoffer (talk) 10:32, 12 July 2024 (UTC)